Sunday, June 18, 2006

Why marry a Western not an Egyptian guy?

Last night, I had this interesting conversation with one my girlfriends in Cairo. We have been friends for more than 12 years. It is always nice to catch up with her about our girly and non-girly news despite the distance. The two of us have so many common jokes and clichés that we use to make fun of guys or being naughty in general.

We talked about so many things, among them was marrying an Egyptian or a western. I do not know why we had to go through this topic but we did. It was a mix of jokes most of the time.

I have no bias agiainst Egyptian or western guys. It is all about the person himself regardless, but in my subconscious I am so aware of my Egyptian culture that of course includes men. My friend believes that marrying a western guy is salvage from some many pains.

She believes that I became so neutral because I do not live in Cairo and that I forgot about all the vices of Egyptian men and that she will take the opportunity to wake me up and remind me again of the reality. So I asked her what is their problem. I pretended to be on the neutral side.

She told me no matter how he pretends to be liberal or progressive he is, there is a point when he starts to talk in this language “you know what this shirt is a bit open”, “I think your skirt is a bit short”, “I believe your wearing too much make up, there is no need for make up”, “do you have to waste all this time styling your hair every time we go out”.

Ok here are some of what we went through and tried to compare it to western guys.

Sharing responsibility is not an issue to be discussed. In Egypt, poor women have to do everything; cook, do the dishes, raise the kids, help them with the homework, go to work, get the groceries, laundry, plan vacations…etc. Men pretend to spend money but in fact women do too because life is getting so expensive. It is very rare to find an Egyptian man who knows how to cook and if he does after he gets married this habit will stop because his wife will cook.

Let’s not forget about the family part. His mom is usually a very attractive personality. There is this culture in Egypt. A mother giving up her son to another woman is like giving up a diamond stone even if he is a straw man. The sister is the second in command in terms of annoying the would-be-wife/fiancé or current wife. The latter is considered the enemy who wants to brainwash the son for her own interest. The mother-son relationship in Egypt is a bit strange at least from my own standards and sometimes scary. Egyptian mothers make sure that their sons are so dependent on them and in so many instances she does not give them the chance to be independent even if there are chances to be an independent individual to continue manipulating them forever.

In so many cases, Egyptian men marry because they found “the suitable” wife. It is the easiest recipe for marriage failure or he marries a woman because he has a crush on her or just being infatuated by her but not because he experienced true love. This “suitable” word just kills me and is capable of killing any marriage. Some Egyptian men are capable of taking a decision marriage if they saw a woman first time among her family members.

The lack of sexual education in Egypt is a disaster. Women and men end up in marriage relationships that they do not know their real dimensions. Frustration to achieve a successful marriage relationship ends up with so many problems.

Egyptian men are raised up to show strength by pretending to be emotionless. The freedom to express real feelings is considered lack of manhood. The result is lack of communications and a relationship built up on guessing and in most of the cases it turns to be extremely stressful because of the continuous misunderstanding.

Egyptian guys love to start a love relationship with the push and pull technique. And they believe that this is going to sweep the woman off the floor, fearing that if they used the friendship technique that will end the up the relationship as only friends. Love that is based on friendship is just one of the best ways to guarantee a solid lasting love relationship. Friendships that end in love are amazing because it is based on mutual understanding, common activities and sharing.

Career is a male word. Egyptian men does not believe that career is applied to both men and women. It is not an easy thing for a man to give up his career for his woman for example which does not happen in all time. She is expected to give up every thing she does for her man and children without a thank you because this is her role no matter how is important her work for her.

Egyptian men resort to spend their spare time with their boyfriends at the clubs, coffee shops after work and at the weekends, because the atmosphere at home is usually not nice since he does not take part in sharing children’s issues, homework or household stuff. They do not think of sharing activities of their wives, because their wives are busy and they are saving her time for the house and the children. Marrying a straw man is not a great idea. He keeps all his single friends and he believes that it is not appropriate for his wife to mingle with them.

The continuous struggle between the Egyptian wife and husband on where to spend the national holidays and vacations is always a decision on whether with her or his families. There is no time to have sometime for themselves. If the day off will be spent with his or her family whatever, it has to end up with a fight in their way back to their home while the children are sleeping in the car if they have one. He claims that the way she talked to his mom or sister was not appropriate and that she is intentionally flaring up an argument to make it a reason not to spend time with his family in future occasions.

My friend and I ended up the conversation after she reminded of all the Egyptian men vices. She told me “Despite all that I think I will continue to like my Egyptian boyfriend and I want to marry him”. So why did we go through all this conversation, I do not know!

Egyptianism: previous blog posts:
Egyptian Belly Dancing
Social Freedoms and Chastity in Egypt and the U.S.
Marriage is a Contract Paper in Egypt
Egyptian Bawabs make it to Boston


At 11:06 PM, Blogger programmer craig said...

Forget the Egyptian guys! Marry the Westerners :D

Just kidding... I want to comment but I don't want to go first on this one :)

At 12:08 AM, Blogger MechanicalCrowds said...

A little judgemental aren't we?
What's with all the generalizations? It's not fair I think.

At 5:34 AM, Blogger Herlock Sholmes said...

Spot on!! Well done.

You just described why I wouldn't be with an egyptian woman :)

At 9:35 AM, Blogger Freedom for Egyptians said...

Westerners win, there is no doubt programmer craig, with all due respect to Egyptian men:) But I have to admit that not all Egyptian women are capable of handling western men. It requires openness with the self, confidence and rising to a certain level of culture. But I know many Egyptian women who are successfully married to westerners. Anyway, I do not want to sound like a black and whit person in judgement.

Mechanical Crowds: I said from the very beginning that we were making jokes, you know how Egyptians are capable fun of themselves...

Herlock Sholmes, you are a typical Egyptian who wants to throw all the responsibility on Egyptian women:)) Poor She!. This is so unfair. But in a male-dominant society like Egypt, men take advantage to play their women. But anyway I wish you the best of luck good luck for you with a Western woman:))

At 9:36 AM, Anonymous Hani said...

Hi, this is my first time to your blog, which is a place that I have been ‎missing I guess!‎
Anyway, I will try to make a short response here; for the how a man nag ‎on the way you dress, I think it will extremely depend on where you are ‎living, right?!! No problem with a short skirt in Europe, but would make a ‎disaster in Saudi Arabia for instance :)‎

As for the man avoiding all the responsibilities towards kids and home and ‎preferring to spend his time out side home, I think it will highly depend on ‎what is waiting him at home, a wife with a smile, a warm kiss and a lovely ‎set of kids would surely draw his attention, don’t you think?!‎

As for the son being dependent on his mother, I guess his mother is a ‎woman, so the problem resides in???! not the man I think!‎

I don’t want to change this into a debate, but I think the whole world has ‎the same men/women conflicts, and has nothing to do with being ‎Egyptian, western or eastern, it is much more about the wife and husband, ‎how they set their life and how much each one will scarify for the other…‎
But that is only what I think :)‎

At 9:43 AM, Blogger Libyan Violet said...

Hi Freedom For Egyptians, got here through Sandmonkey's link . I think you have summed up all the cliches about Egyptian male-female relationship. I thought that some of the things could be similar in Libya, but I'm not sure about the holiday and stuff. I am always wondering about the Arab men and specifically the Libyan men, but they seem to defy definition ..*sigh*.

I'm all for encouragemnt of mixing of people - makes the genetic pool so much more interesting, and hey the kids are even more attractive !

At 11:23 AM, Blogger Egypeter said...

If only you could somehow combine the best of the "Egyptian men" and the best of the "Western men" then you would have just the right combination...

Oh wait, that's exactly me!! :)

Born and raised in Chicago to Alexandrian-raised parents. Half Alexandrian, half Chicagoan...

one hundred percent hilarious.

At 12:15 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

this is all soooo true!!!! they are exactly as you describe.... i know it sounds funny, but sadly this is what egyptian women have to put up with.....
Hani said,
As for the son being dependent on his mother, I guess his mother is a ‎woman, so the problem resides in???! not the man I think!‎

Are you saying egyptian men are incapable of making their own decisions??that they are so completely helpless that they cant make up their mind one way or the other... that they need a woman to lead them, so they will follow blindly???? now I think you arent being fair to the men!!!! I think they are perfectly capable of handling their lives... they are just too lazy to do it, and they were never taught to treat women well, so they couldnt care less what the wife feels or thinks... as long the mom is happy, screw everyone else!!
I am not generalizing here..... i am sure there are some terriffic egyptian men out there.... i am speaking about the mama's boy.... who listens to the mom blindly, and in the process shoves aside his wife and kids..... and I know they do exist, and not in small numbers!!!

anyway love the post. keep it up!!

At 12:35 PM, Blogger Freedom for Egyptians said...


I am glad you are joining the discussion. You wrote...
"I think it will highly depend on ‎what is waiting him at home, a wife with a smile, a warm kiss and a lovely ‎set of kids would surely draw his attention, don’t you think?!‎"

You are still talking like any Middle Eastern man who is always expecting and not thinking of what are his responsibilities. You are talking of what "She" should be doing. How about you? I did not what should "She" expect from you. You did not talk about your role or your responsibility towards her. I visited your Blog and I saw that you are about to get married. So congratulations man and I wish you a happy marriage life.

Libyan Violet,

I think the only way for a positive social evolution to happen among humans is to mingle and mix. I agree with you, if we live in the same pool with the same people we keep and retain same habits and rituals which are not necessarily correct for a style of living.

Last anon,

I am glad you came to second my opinions:) Oh there are millions of mama's boys in Egypt. It is just part of their personalities to avoid taking responsibility. They lay the blame on the wife for not taking care of them or making their lives like hell or wait for mummy to take decisions for them:) But as you said there are also a bunch of good Egyptian men out there who are not suffering from psychological problems...

My friend Egypeter,

You are just the perfect combination. Alexandria (Egypt) is my favorite city. It used to be the source of openness and modernity unlike the rural areas in Egypt. You can never be better; American-Egyptian:)) I guess I have to make you an ad here if you are looking for a girlfriend...:))

At 12:50 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wives are people too- they have moods, good days, bad days... and I think you don't know a thing about children if you desire a "lovely set of kids". Children are unpredictible and challenging.

Likewise, stay at home moms would like a husband who comes home from work and takes over the child care duties for a while without being asked, no matter what mood the kids are in. Moms want a husband who brings her flowers, hires a babysitter and takes her out on dates, and shares in the cooking and cleaning duties without being asked. Men who work while their wives stay at home seem to think the woman's job is at home...true, but when does it end? Professionals have evenings and weekends off. You've gotta eat and the kids must be cared for, so unless the husband steps up ON HIS OWN she never gets time off.

Most important, if the man is taking on his responsibilities, his relationship with his wife will be better and the kids will be happier. You are living in an ideal, non-existent world to think you can come home to a "wife with a smile, a warm kiss and a lovely ‎set of kids" without doing some preliminary work in the family and relationship.

Welcome to FFE's blog! Sorry, don't mean to attack you personally, but that is *exactly* the kind of thinking that FFE and many other Egyptian or Egyptian-American women steer clear from!

At 1:26 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I agree.. 90% of the egyptian guys are dam spoiled.. mum makes the gourmet food and dad buys him the latest car.. i do not think they ever imagine themselves really being responsible.. - not to even mention having kids while they as adult men themselves still take their pocket money from their dads..! I have travelled.. moved out of the country... lived on my own.. managed my own finance.. paid my own bills and dues.. proudly bought everything i have without my paretns help.. and i cannot imagine being with a guy who for the least of it.. have not done half of what i did..!

At 2:56 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

As a US woman, I see the problem like this: all men would behave like the "Egyptian husband" you mentioned, if they could. Men are lazy at home, all of them, world over. They don't think that kids need that much attention, and they don't notice if the house, clothes, etc are dirty. Women care about these things, so they do the work to keep it nice. Women get pleasure from seeing their kids delighted with some food they have prepared, or see their kids enjoying something delightful the Mom has arranged for them. I don't think men get much pleasure from those things.
And yes, hate to break the news to you, but ALL WOMEN EVERYWHERE must make great effort every day to be clean, neat and smiling as much as possible when the man gets home. Men are simpleminded and need praise a lot or they run out of energy for the family. The fidelity of men is a very thin reed on which to place the safety and health of a family, and women know it. Men might hang around; women give up their lives for the family.

At 3:21 PM, Blogger programmer craig said...

I hate to say it but I agree with what the previous anon said about men in general.

The difference is that most western men have been raised to think that they should contribute in the home. This has been true since at least my generation (I was a kid in the 70s) and while it's not universal, it's pretty common. It was my grandfather's generation that was the last to think men should be catered to by their wives. Most the guys I know are prtty good around the house, even the red-necky traditional ones :)

At 3:35 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I completely agree with programmer Craig. Men worldwide are lazy by nature. They are raised that is nurture, not nature, of the male gender but unfortunately we have not closed the gender gap in that regard yet. The difference is more American men are held accountable. Even men who act this way in America (mostly) know they are being irresponsible and unfair to their families. Egyptian men are raised to believe that's just the way men are, so women must deal with it and pick up their slack.

The best thing Egyptian mothers can do for their boys is force them to take responsibility- make them fold their own laundry, help with the dishes after dinner, require regular household chores, etc, so boys don't grow up to be another generation of incompetent men.

At 6:33 PM, Blogger The Eyewitness said...

First I think it a bit too generalizional and judegmental. But away form these I wanna add one point. For me as Egyptian, I can realize and deal with the vices of egyptian community and personality, but it is very difficult for me to deal with the vices of weastern community and personality. I think this why inspite of all the vices your friend had listed, she still wants to marry her egyptian boyfriend. Dealing with a problem that I'm experienced with is much more easier than dealing with a problem that I have no idea about.

At 7:15 PM, Blogger forsoothsayer said...

fair enough but regarding emotion: egyptian men are founts of emotion. on the contrary, in egyptian culture it is not 3eib for mento show emotion. check the dashboard of any taxi: hearts and stupid pink shit. they all listen to, and enjoy, romantic music. every egyptian boyfriend i have ever had has been mushy, i love u's all over the place, constant talks about our relationship, silly text messages, the works. if you haven't come across this, it is because you haven't men one that likes YOU, not because it's egyptian culture. no offence.

At 8:45 PM, Anonymous vox p said...

I cook very well and I do my laundry and clean the house myself.. On the other hand, I don't like make up but it's a personal taste and not a macho thing. So will you marry me or not? :)

PS the thing of Arab men who pretend to be liberal but in fact are not is true. But some people are really conservative. IMO, can always tell by somebody's education, falmilial background and culture if he is conservative or not.

At 9:53 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

forsooth- egyptian boys have not learned the rule that you don't say i love you unless you mean it. I have seen this happen over and over with friends still in Egypt. Anyway, maybe not 100%, but most egyptian boys that have such an "intimate" relationship with their girlfriends to not take the girl seriously enough to marry her in the end so he might as well have fun while he's dating her.

At 10:48 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm an atheist, who has an ex-Muslim woman as a girlfriend, and I get the distinct opinion that she likes my 'modern' attitude towards relationships. In the beginning of our relationship I had to work hard to do my part, but she soon learned that as a Western guy, that I wanted to be an equal in the relationship and not the 'Master'! By the way, the intimate part of our relationship is much more satisfying for her due to the true intimacy, caring and well I guess my experience in sexual pleasures!

At 11:43 PM, Blogger programmer craig said...

so many anonymous chickens! :P

At 6:23 AM, Anonymous Amgad Boktor said...

I think that you are generalizing here. Many of us would like to have a mutual relationship with Egyptian women. We also seek love and compassion before convenience. The problem is that many Egyptian women have internalized the message that they are sex objects and they act as if they are entering a business partnership with the men that propose to them. They can be really immature when they demand expensive shabkah and wedding even if their husbands cannot afford it.

At 8:11 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

In traditional "wisdom" an American husband must propose with a ring that costs 2 months' salary. The point is that if a man loves the woman enough to marry her, he should sacrifice and save for long enough that it reminds him for 5-6 months or however long it takes to save that money that after he commits to marriage through engagement, he will need to make sacrifices to support his wife and family. It's sort of old school thinking and many women don't care for a 5000-10000 ring, which is 2 months salary for the average guy of marrying age here, but still... the idea is the same. I have seen how young egyptian men spend money on entertainment. The old demands of a woman and her family for gifts are unreasonable, but saving and sacrificing is a good practice in the end if the man wants to have the means to support his family.

At 2:20 PM, Blogger Sam said...

Dear F.F.E. :
Alaa is Free
will leave Jail tomorrow,wednasday June 21st 2006
However, The Charges against him has NOT been dropped.
Do you have any more News ?

At 9:28 PM, Anonymous Eva said...

Hi! First time on your blog. And I say, Don't blame the men, blame the mothers-in-law!

I'm a European, married to a man from the same country who happened to be the only son. His mother did everything for him. I come from a family, where women had careers the same men did and both shared housework without discussion. Imagine my shock when my husband expected ME (!) to polish his shoes! It was a rocky start to our marriage as you can imagine. To this day I hate my mother-in-law for spoiling an otherwise good man and now that she's dead I hope she'll rot in hell. To the mothers here: You are not doing your son a favor by pampering him. Let him stand on both his feet as soon as possible. He'll be more of a man!

At 7:21 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I second your comment Eva!

At 2:16 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

My mother in law worked while my husband was a child. He's perfectly capable of recognising that the fridge is empty and that there's no more clean socks.

It's not an "Inborn Error" that men are lazy. Somebody made them. Maybe the mothers are to blame but if it continues in a marriage - blame it on yourself.
If you want to have a career too, then you should have discussed it with your husband before the marriage. That's important. The size of the ring on the finger is not important. And nobody remembers the wedding dress but you - unless you were almost naked.
If he stays out every evening or just sleeps in front of the television, then stop being responsible for the housekeeping. Stop doing the washing. Stop preparing dinner. When there's no more clean underwear, let him find out how to manage the washing machine.
Stop telling him what to do, how to do it and when to do it. Stop yelling at him.
Most cooks are men. Most famous designers are men. Most production managers are (still) men. Many school teachers are men and most university professors are men.

Most men are able to care for a sick child, to cook, to clean, to help children with homework, to buy bread and to operate the tumble dryer - if you let them.

At 8:40 AM, Blogger palestinianphilosopher said...

dude, u shouldn't be so negative about you're own people. you're giving the impression that all egyptians and their mother-in-laws are a pain in the neck.

At 7:29 PM, Blogger QofD said...

It makes me depressed to read about the troubles that some of my fellow women have with their boyfriends and husbands. I have been married five years now to a man who is completely loyal to me, a wonderful father to our two children, and makes me laugh on a constant basis.

I am a stay at home mom, and when he arrives home every day he occupies the kids so that I can have a break. He helps with household chores when I need it (without being asked!) and is completely thoughtful in every way. I don't know if it's because he's Western or if it's simply because he was raised by a good woman who taught him to respect and appreciate women. I cannot fathom that Egyptian society does not have at least a few of these gems as well... (I hope so!)

At 9:06 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I find this type of generalisation to be mind boggling in this day and age.

Surely human beings, as autonomous individuals, vary in a way that is not predisposed by their nationality or ethnicity.

This discussion reminds me of the part in this book on Bruce Lee that I'm currently reading, where his girlfriend's mother refuses him because of his Chinese ethnicity.

Treating people as individuals is part and parcel of being civilised.

So freedomforegyptians, what do you think of blacks, indians and chinese people?

At 10:38 AM, Blogger programmer craig said...

Previous anon, I'm anglo and I was married to a Chinese woman for about 10 years. I like Chinese people. There are many things about Chinese culture that I prefer to my own culture. But to try and say there are no differences between people from vastly different cultures is just plain foolish.

At 11:37 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

programmer craig:

to prejudge peoples' actions, thoughts and deeds based on their ethnicity is racist and simplistic and would not hold water in a court of law.

It is the premise of ignoramuses.

At 11:52 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

to the anonymous who said: I find this type of generalisation to be mind boggling in this day and age.

and to the anonymous who said the generalizations would not stand up in a court of law...

... recognizing cultural differences is not generalization. Especially in middle east culture, there are distinct differences. I am egyptian-american, born and raised in america but with most of my family still in Egypt. It blows my mind that even the "good" guys DO have very very old fashioned ideas about women. THis is the culture. THe culture is very religious, both Christians and Muslims, and maintains the old ideas of the male role and identity.

"A ship without one captain is doomed to sink" is the saying most often are the leaders, the breadwinners. Women follow, raise the family, and have certain roles.

Sometimes to understand a culture you must first recognize the differences. Cultural judgments cannot be analogized to due process in a court of law (i know, i am a lawyer).

...racist is when you treat people differently and act with a sense of superiority towards those of a different racial or ethnic background. Recognizing that there are fundamental differences in the cultural mentality is not racist, it is realistic and understanding.

At 11:54 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am the anonymous who just posted (one day i will log in and register!) - to add to my previous comment however, there ARE a minority of Egyptian men who see the benefit of equality in the genders and fluid, flexible roles. This group of men is, however, still unfortunately a very small minority in Egypt.

At 3:34 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

To anonymous who just posted, I am also a lawyer, albeit in the UK.

To what extent superiority and chauvenism is reflected in the original posting and subsequent comments, is debatable.

I emphatically believe that the level of argumentation went beyond the 'recognition' of cultural differences, to a broad-brushed tainting and near parody that is quite unsubstantive.

Do you believe your values and cultural acumen as an Egyptian-American to be superior?

Are 'American' values homogenous?

Would you contend that Egyptian society is racist?

At 5:29 AM, Anonymous seg said...

What about marrying Western or Egyptian girls ?
Probably not much different. Knowing a few egyptian guys born and raised in Egypt now living in France, I am often surprised to see how similar the Egyptians and the French seem to be.
So I gather you Egyptian girls are probaly very close to me and my french 'consoeurs'. What's your opinion ?

At 10:06 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

UK lawyer:
I see value in both. I try to take the best in both cultures. Yes, i think it is superior to see equality in spouses in family relationships rather than the traditional view that a woman passes from her father to her husband. But i also see value in family leadership. I am not married, but yes, i seek a husband who knows how to lead his family.

"American" values are not homogeneous. There is a place for everyone's "values". THe society in Egypt, however, imposes certain cross cultural values that very few people, except the bravest and strongest and most grounded, care to challenge. The cross cultural values in Egypt are not Muslim or Christian, but societal.

I read a book by a middle eastern woman once that pretty much summed up the difference between western and middle eastern cultures: in the middle east, the society values tradition and constancy. There is a sense of nostalgia and the society (as a whole, not individuals, and not movements like within the pro-democracy movement) In the west, we constantly look forward, seek change and progress. Sure, there are people who deviate, but the forward vs. backward looking societal practice says a lot about cultural values.

I feel i am in a fair place to recognize the differences since both cultures are deeply imbedded in my roots. I personally cannot relate and I would feel stifled as a woman in egypt, having grown up in America. But I understand and can appreciate the good and the bad in both cultures, which in my opinion is not racist at all.

At 12:45 PM, Blogger Gateway Pundit said...

Wow! Why do I have the feeling that you could have gone on for another ten pages?

At 8:35 PM, Anonymous tenderhearts said...

Hello ..
well while I was looking for any Egyptioan woman that married to American like me ...I found this blog and I read the article and I wanna say one thing only ..
This article is true to apply for 99% of Egyptian men and the very rare cases that post the opposite is the 1% left..
I am an Egyptian woman married to an American "great man " and I really can see the difference between him and other men in my country brief Iam the happiest woman in the whole world ...and I want nothing from this big world but being with him forever always because he is the best man I have ever met in my life ..Thank you..SP

At 8:42 PM, Anonymous tenderhearts said...

I forgot to mention , I am not a typica Egyptian woman though My friends always saw me as very open and my values and my way of thinking would never go with nay Egyptian guy ,My husband is teh first man I ever go out with ..I loved him from the first sight and we married one month after we first met and we are really a soulmates ..I always used to believed that love has no bounderies .. and It's true...And Mark said " my husband I mean" That he woulddn't be able to go with Typical Egyptian wives ...we are definetly think the same , see things the same way and we also love the same thing ..what shall i say we are soulmates ..that's for sure ..

At 10:07 PM, Blogger Solomon2 said...

Is this an "Egyptian" thing or a "Cairo" thing? Are Egyptian men different in Alexandria or Suez or someplace else?

At 3:52 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I can't believe the lack of subtance and the free reign to generalise and the 'personal experiences' that posters are using, to make their arguments.

What about the 50% divorce rates in the US & UK?

If 'Western men' are so great, why can't they maintain their own marriages?

At 3:55 AM, Blogger Youssef M. Assad said...

Yea, okay. You opened this can, I'm just helping tip it a bit.

Egyptian women look at a guy's bank account and decide whether he is suitable or not. They want weddings which out-cost the friend of the girl who sat beside them at the club, hey, remember her? Didn't she say the wedding cost 200 grand?

Egyptian women have this cute bedroom technique. I think it's called "lay back and let him do it all". When I say it all, I mean it all.

And you know, post-makeup, Egyptian woman really aren't much to look at.

So, you know, I just don't get why one should bother with Egyptian women. It isn't like they're rocket scientists either.

I was heading for a comfortable bachelorhood until I was captured by a breathtaking Italian girl.

The Egyptian gene pool is a sinking ship, and I'm bailing.

At 10:53 AM, Blogger programmer craig said...

If 'Western men' are so great, why can't they maintain their own marriages?

Maybe western women suck? :P

Our divorce rates in the US were very low 50 years ago. Probably lower than divorce rates in Egypt. Women in the US are a lot less (financially) dependent on their husband's now than they were then. Also, men no longer get raped with huge alimony payments after a divorce. It used to be men had to support thier ex-wives for the rest of their lives, post divorce. Divorce is pretty painless now, financially, compared to the past. For both men and women. I suspect that's the difference, in it's entirety.

Your attempt to use divorce rates in this discussion is a pretty good example of why sometimes personal subjective experiences are better :)

Low divorce rates usually indicate high levels of misognyny. Not the opposite.

At 5:40 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

programmer craig:

My point was that some of the world's highest divorce rates *today* - as opposed to 50 years ago, indicate dysfunctional relationships.

The argument that American divorce is of minor importance because it has become so prevalent - due to its smaller financial burdens, does not negate the fact that ultimately divorce = dysfunction.

My argument therefore stands that if 'western' men are so great, then *why* are they engaged in such a high rate of marital dysfunction?

At 10:19 PM, Blogger programmer craig said...

Why are you asking me (a western guy) to help prove western guys suck? :)

If you've got something to say, feel free!

At 2:03 PM, Anonymous Amy said...

my husby is egyptian. he's the best man I could ever have. I talk to him about male-dominated egypt, he says it depends how a person is brought up. He treats me well - much better that my old boyfriends.

He says Islam obliges Muslims to treat women best. I love him best in the world.

At 5:57 AM, Blogger diabolik said...

I have dated a Moroccan girl in England for 21/2 years but at the end it just went nowhere. Regardless of lots of love, I just would not convert and her family (who knoew everything but pretended not to) just made her call it a day. Very sad state of affairs really.

At 6:02 AM, Blogger diabolik said...

After being her boss and having a great friendship for a year, I ended up dating my Moroccan waitress for the next 2.5 years.
Cultures are very different and she would do the craziest things like not holding hands in public, kissing etc. Very difficult to live with. But the worst thing was being asked to convert. I never accepted and it finished because of that. The saddest thing is her family knew and liked me but hey...honour is honour!
I think an Arab woman has eveything to gain and nothing to lose in dating a westerner...and I also think that a western man can benefit a lot from dating an arab woman if he is strong enough to stop the conversion non-sense immediately.

At 6:06 AM, Blogger diabolik said...

Then again, talking about crazy things, I have met a lovely Iraqi girl, she is a Christian but man.....same madness when it comes to "honour" "virginity" and all that....

At 4:32 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

If we're talking about westernized shallow minded masris, no thanks. Westerners arent faithful and will cheat on their spouses if given the chance...I seen it all on Jerry Springer.

At 2:59 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

ohhhh, if you have seen it on Jerry Springer then it must be true! They dont make any of that up at all!
(btw thats sarcasm)

At 1:37 AM, Blogger emidesu_2000 said...

My Egyptian fiance is wonderful! He cooks, cleans, irons and pampers me. He is also romantic in a way I haven't seen in too many western guys. Maybe he is the exception, but I would argue against generalization. Also, I would imagine the religious issue mitigates against too many marriages in the other direction...

At 4:06 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

i don't know about you but i find your opinion about egyptian men and men rather very stereotypical. i mean sure egyptian men have their flaws but who doesn't. i don't recall ever commenting on how much make up my girl friend wears or how long it takes her to to fix her hair or what she wears in terms of clothing. i was attracted to her for who she is. if any thing it was SHE that wanted ME to change certain things like smoking because she "didn't wanna be seen with a smoker" so i guess it depends on the individual's personal back ground and not as you put it. i mean yeah sure my mom took care of her motherly business but she's also extremely successful in her career and my father was never an obstacle for her career.
any way i just want people to know that marriage is the most important decision and it should be considered very carefully by BOTH parties.

At 2:06 AM, Anonymous Catherine said...

ok, here;s my story....( i'm american)
I was friends with an egyptian guy...I LOVE EGYPT!! and he was very kind and sweet and the nicest person in the world. he i=undertood me... we were friends untill i fell in love with him a few months later...i admitted i loved him and he loved me too...recently though he said that since we have never seen each other in real life and not near each other, it was not love. He said thet he 'really' didnt know me, so i was upset. being a woman i over reacted and said i hated him...he wanted to be best friends and was sad i hated him. iforgave him, realising he was very nice about telling me how he felt....

is this relationship worth fighting for?

At 11:03 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

don't you have better things to say about egyptian men?

My boyfriend is an Egyptian so far hes such a nice guy although we have not been together yet. But he promised me and i believe we will be together soon.

At 5:11 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

i agree with you
if i have the choice,i will never marry an egyptian guy,im muslim,and i think i would have the best life ever if i married a decent american muslim or any other english speaking guy! i am fed up with egyptian guys

At 9:10 PM, Blogger The Annarchist said...

hahaha I love you for writing this. I am an Egyptian-American woman and sad to say, these are the exact same reasons I don't think I will ever marry an Egyptian man. I would like to have more faith in them, but they never show me anything different than undesirable stereotypes (even IN in America). Then again I think of my father who tries to be as progressive as he can be in regards to women and culture and is incredibly hard-working and generous and good to his children, but doesn't treat my mother like he always should. I hate to sound too mean, but Egyptian men are wayyy to Oedipal---ouch! Appropriately enough, Oedipus did answer the SPHINX's riddle.

At 6:02 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

i am a western woman. i have been to egypt twice. both times i was flattered by the egyptian men. blonde hair blue eyes-they love it. can anyone tell me the real reason egyptian men say i love you? i am all for falling in love but am suspect of egyptian men wating a visa, little wifey in egypt with the blue eyes washing his pants etc
i went out with this guy who worked in my hotel for a few hours on my last night there. i am in touch with him still. he texts saying i love you?????????
are the egyptian men that desperate to a- get married
b- marry a westerner
c- just find a westerner to sleep with- not that that happened
i am at a loss to as why they can't just relax.
someone please fill me in?

At 6:56 PM, Blogger Jazz said...

Mmmm 'I LOVE YOU' and You have only just met???? I have travelled to Egypt many times over many years and seen many changes. Some do just want a visa, some want money, some just want a truen and loving relationship. Egyptian men can be very loving and sincere they are not all the same, some of the comments on here regarding their Mums and family are true. but life is changing in this country men don't want to be married off at an early age, they do expect certain things due to culture and religion but they generally want to live a more open and normal life where they can show affection in public they want to be equal in a relationship. I know of one couple a German woman and Egyptian man she went to be with him with no money, she help him to set up a business and they work hard together, now she does not work and he looks after her very well. It dies not matter weher you are in the world relationships need working at, need respect for each other, honesty & friendship.
I have been ripped off in England by an English guy, I now realise he saw an opportunity went for it and came out with a reasonable lump sum, In Egypt if you have property or business in your name only it is yours for keeps, the man has no right to it. the man has a responsibility to provide for his family so he works and brings in a wage, if the wife works then that money is hers to do as she pleases in does not have to go into the pot, seems to me the men have the hard life here, imagine the reaction from western men to this, so to be fair if you marry an Egyptian (By the way they make excellent lovers) and keep everything in your name who is the winner......

At 1:08 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I stumbled upon this blog browsing the internet for pictures of north african women. I think that they are the most physically attractive women in the world. So, anyhow, I have to say that a lot of what I have read here makes me shake my head in disbelief. Yes, there are many cultural differences between Americans and Egyptians, but there are also many differences between the Canadians and the French, the Chinese and Japanese, the Irish and Scottish, and the list goes on. One can not simply categorize these "human" issues into culture, race or gender.I have seen that BOTH men and women EXPECT different things from there mates, and at one time or another,most of us are guilty of wanting our mate to change (or "grow"). Men want there women to be women and women want there men to be men. It is too funny to think that a man can define what a woman should be and do and it is equally funny that a woman can say what makes a good man.I am not saying that we do not have the right to get what we want out of our relationships, but it is so important to remember that relationships are trial and error, compromise and sacrifice, and most of all, balance. Not all relationships will work, simply because we are human and none of us are perfect. It is up to the individual to decide if they can commit to the personalityof their mate, and hopefully that love will be returned. Until then, we just have to keep looking for our "perfect" person. Self worth is real, but don't set your standards so high that you end up alone! Thanks for listening. :). -Walt, the American.

At 11:33 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

masya allah,a very nice ending!typical egyptian -girl -way -of- ruining life.

i know,i married one,but why i am the only malaysian reading this blog?because malaysians dont marry egyptians.i am one of rare woman who did,fillah,and end up penniless.

i wonder why none of 6.6 billions of world population dont even write about egyptian beating his wife.


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