Denmark, Do Not Apologize
If Denmark resigned to the war launched by Muslim Arabs to receive apology from the government of Denmark, I am sorry to say that Denmark will simply be saying we do not believe in what we stand for. Denmark will be sending the message that we apply freedom of expression but we do not really believe in it.
Denmark will be sending the message around the world that Arab citizens who are ruled by the one party, president for life regimes and state-owned press and writers are imposing their lack of freedom on the free world, hence the prevailance of the culture of oppression, tyranny and ideologies of hatred
If Denmark wants to apologize, then Denmark must the set its conditions. Muslim Governments and peoples must apologize for every innocent person that got beheaded while the name of Prophet Muhamed was uttered or hung at the back of the slaughter houses scenes. Muslims must apologize that Prophet’s Muhamed’s name was used in the name of beheading innocent people. Muslims must apologize for sucide bombers who blow themselves in children buses, worshipping places and metro stations while saying in the name of God, no prophet but Muhamed. They must apologize that the name of Prophet Muhamed is used in such criminal terrorist acts. These are not damn cartoons this is a horror terrorist reality.
Denmark, Don’t Apologize. Stand for what you believe in, you take pride in your freedom then let it happen. If Muslims think that their lives are hung on one stupid cartoon, it is because we have nothing else to take pride in. It is not about Freedom of Expression. Denmark, you negotiate or compromise your Freedom of Expression with peoples and regimes that apply Freedom of Expression and that speak your language.
Denmark, you will be like those defeatists who are calling for the US troops withdrawal from Iraq to be hub and playground for terrorists to blow us up everywhere. Stand tall for your values! Anti-Retardedness Campaign Continues...
Oh and BTW, I am a Muslim and I love Danish Cheese.... Yummy!
Gateway Pundit on his update wrote that France, Germany, Spain and Italy have reprinted the cartoons today. Ok guys time to launch war on Europe not only Denmark. Show us how you will boycott a whole continent!
Egyptian/Mideast Bloggers on board of the Anti-Retardedness Campaign: Big Pharaoh, Shamousa, Nadimyat-نديميات (Arabic), Arabian Dissent, Seneferu. If you know of others let me know.
Related post, anti-retardedness campaign
The Tragedy of Hamlet, Prince of Denmark, William Shakespeare, Act I, Scene 5
“Let not the royal bed of Denmark be
A couch for luxury and damned incest.”
posted by Freedom For Egyptians @ 11:58 AM
107 comments
107 Comments:
A country whose main exports are oil and terrorism, trying to stifle the freedom of the independent press? A country that denies basic human rights to women, and holds public floggings has no moral ground to stand upon.
Are they so thin skinned that their age old religion can't stand up to a few cartoons?
The claims that the depiction of Mohammed in a cartoon sparked this controversy doesn't stand up to very close scrutiny. Images of Mohammed have been published before without any complaint.
Buy Danish!
Muslims think they can treat others anyway they want and in return we must all bow down.
Egypeter,
I am not supportive of Islamism taking over, but there is a reality that we are all living that dictatorship created religious, some of them extremist, streams or movements. We cannot disinclude them because they are a threat. If dictatorship strengthened them, I wonder if freedom and democracy can transform them. If Hamas is able to recognize Israel as a peace partner and neighbour then democracy succeeded in transforming terrorist groups to partners. Democracy and freedom by time can weaken them because the alternatives can be wide. Now dictatorships created only two alternatives corrupt secular dictatorships and extremist Islamic movements. What I believe in that we cannot keep that the status quo meaning those two powers in power. We need a change! I want a state for citizens not for religions!
Egypeter
That's what we are waiting for to happen. But definitely Hamas is capable of turning the lives of the Palestinians into hell by blocking peace and isolating itself. Let's hope for the best to happen.
FFE,
I don't think the danisk prime minister will "sell out". He's basically saying that he doesn't have the power to control the danish media and do not want such power over the press. Consequently he cannot apologize (let alone punish) the newspaper (Jyllands-Posten). However he has a personal opinion about the cartoons and the grief the have caused in the muslim world. I'll try not to misrepresent him and refer you to the danish foreign ministry www.um.dk, which has more details.
As for the newspaper, what they have said is that they regret that muslims have been offended. But they will not apologize for publishing the cartoons. And thats basically what they have said for the past months.
What is truely disturbing in this matter is that a few very vocal islamist (e.g. Abu Laban) in Denmark, are able to completely misrepresent the majority of sensible muslims. From using illustrations [1] in the ME (and a segment on BBC World) that has absolutely nothing to do with the published cartoons, to telling one story to the danish media ("we want the boycot to stop") and another to the arab media ("we applaud escalation of the boycot"). Of course we infidels were not supposed to understand the arab interview.
We've been listening to their spewings for a long time, while they we're taking maximum advantage of the freedom of speech in our country (and yes in Denmark you can make fun of Jews). Damn hypocrites.
Ah well, I'm off on vacation to a muslim country, and I'm gonna enjoy it. Just as I have enjoyed reading all the well balanced ME blogs. Maybe the retarded (hats of to sandmonkey) boycot, threats, flag burnings etc. will have settled in a few weeks. Always the optimist :-)
Morten, Denmark
[1] E.g. check the link Side34 on http://www.ekstrabladet.dk/VisArtikel.iasp?PageID=329877 which contains some of the material that the danish islamist brought to the ME to ignite the fire.
Morten,
These idiots calling for boycott cannot understand that press institutions do not belong governments and that the writers are not hired by the president as the case the ME. They do not know what is FREE PRESS. They do not speak your language.
As for your vacation, go and enjoy yourself.
Always dogs barks are louder...But no one listens to what they are saying in most cases!(With all due respect to dogs, cause I love them).
Hiya,
Got a little time before catching my plane. I re-read my comment and just wanted to make one point clear:
From my point of view whether or not the initial editorial decision to publish the cartoons was right or wrong is separate issue. It has now turned into a question of free press and speech, by the demands for an apology by the prime minister, for cartoons published in a privately owned newspaper.
And thanks, I'll enjoy my vacation :-)
Morten, Denmark
When I hear about something being made so big about these cartoons I have to wonder:
- Who is behind this reaction?
- What do they have to gain?
I doubt if the people behind this are sincere. My guess is it a means to a very rational, and probably evil, ends.
Am I wrong in perceiving that Muslim opinion is frequently manipulated to create a reaction of anger and low self esteem?
hahahha, this is really funny and ridiculous. Denmark will be punished and signs are very clear that Europe's cow won't be able to moo soon, at least in Islamic countries.
I also see that Freedom for "Egyptians" - ridiculous name for a woman that does not represent Egyptians - to promote for Freedom of Speech and this whole bla bla shit. Your freedom of speech does not mean to insult the others. Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) had been drawn before, but this time was really mockery. Your freedom stops when it violates others' freedom and belief. What are you trying to sell here? Your ideas are shabby and do not convey but hatred.
we are - as Muslims - very proud to see how the boycott gets the Danish cow down. To make you happy, please read:
http://www.arlafoods.com/APPL/HJ/HJ202COM/HJ202D01.NSF/O/C93409C3A6E14E9EC12571090033A03F
Also, the arrogant Danish PM had called all Arab and Muslim ambassadors for a meeting tomorrow to discuss the issue; ha ha ha ha. The man refused that at the beginning.
Those Danes are money-slaves and we have kicked their ass.
Some say: "Let's see how Muslims will boycott France, Germany, Spain, Italy, etc". I just want to let you know that we know that this is a new crusade and those countries have enough Muslims to take care of the situation there and it is a matter of time, but please give us some time to finish the 'initiating' cow first, before we milk the next one.
Why this freedom of speech has limits when it comes to the holocaust or talking about Jews. You are all hypocrites and trying to sell what you do not own.
Denmark loses 1.8 MD every day; cheers :-)
that last particular Anon relly got on my nerves...I am not a big fan of FFE...but allow ne to tell u this (ANON)... la2 ragel ya!!(sorry for the arabic, but I felt compeled)
I dont know what is this coming from its either some sort of sexual frustration, or a really severe case of inferiority.....
listen punk, consumer society cant bring any body to his knees..do the math...ah I'm sorry, u seem to be incapable...but let me tell you what is this really about...if you think that you'd be able to be better than another country (whatever your reason for that) by boycotting it alons, then this only because you're a lazy piece of shit, who thinks that by holding back your petty cash you'd be able to do what others did through education, technology, and a lot of good will....
I am an Egyptian, and Muslim (and a male in case that is worrying you...cuz other wise you wouldn't have listened, right?) and I'm telling you this...You're a F*cking Retarded Moron (Gee, I never thought I'd use those words, but they seem really fitting of the situation)
ah...I almost forgot the reason I am here...what is it with this Hamlet quote at the end??? Do you even know what it means? He is talking about the queen's betrayel with her brother-in-law...what does this have to do with anything....take it out plz...the world has enough reasons to think we're stupid already
Tomanbay (you do not deserve such name because the man at least had honor and knew his roots; I doubt you know who is Tomanby; this may be where you live in Zeitoun, filthy), I wish you were a woman, because you just speak like them. I won't use your dirty words describing someone has a different point of view. It just proves to me that you are hypocrite and I was 100% right when I said that about you guys. This is the freedom of speech you know (freedom of speech = insulting & offending others). hahahahaha
I sent you a link to Arla's statement to show how boycott affects Danes, but I believe you did not read it because you do not have time to do the math and you are lazy and just capable of insulting others because you do not have a strong cause or the power to convince with your poor arguments. I knew that you are Egyptian even before you mentioned it, guess how??
You must be unemployed playboy sitting in an Internet cafe having some useless talk with some jerks like you. BTW, thanks for saying it clearly that my comment got you on your nerves; ha ha ha ha; that makes me very happy.
Better to go now to the restroom and sprinkle some cold water on your ..... (Please fill in coz you are up to it and it is easy for someone like to say it) :-)
1.6 MD everyday is not petty cash fool; it is a lot of money idiot and let me write this way, maybe you did not understood it with acronyms:
1.6 Million Dollars; does this make sense to you now, jerk?
I do not believe you are Muslim and if you were, you would not be that aggressive to someone briefing just facts. And if you are Muslim, then you do not belong to the Majority who respect and honor their prophet (PBUH).
You better go read Danish newspapers to see how they yell because of the boycott; hahahahahaha.
You are really pathetic!
Do not forget to sprinkle some water; I am sure it is getting really hot under you now, moron.
Hi Moron Tomanbey (not Tomanbay) because he was a man as I said before;
Did you read Hamlet idiot? Are you showing off, Egyptian idiot? It is your habit, isn't it? To show off that you know Shakespeare. hahaha. I told you are pathetic.
I have Hamlet here already. Tell me in which page moron I can find the last so-called "quote". Which quote stupid? I cannot find one; it must be getting on your nerves again. I advised you to sprinkle some water to feel better.
I know that the world has enough reasons to think you and whom your represent are stupid already; do not use "we" please as if you were talking on behalf of Muslims.
It is out of context here; so you take it out.
World thinks we are stupid because we have jerks like you.
ok..serenity now!
actually its a thursday night, and I have some time on my hand....but I guess that you're not worth it...so I'll make it brief...the only reason that I cared to answer you is because you said I didn't respect Prophet Muhammed (PBUH)..and even I am not defending myself in front of you, because again your opinion is highly inconsequential...but I'd hate that reason be put into the same category as disrespect for the Prophet. What I said, again "punk", is that if you think that boycotting any country can in a million year put you ahead of them, then I feel sorry for you...what can put you ahead of anybody is working, and working, and working... it doesn't get any clearer...
I've read some comment by somebody who said that he was really outraged by the cartoons, and that he will dedicate every minute of his life to work for the good of the Ummah so nothing like that happens again...that I respect...not boycotting...and again thats a personal choice, but plz dont just sit there and pretend that you achieved something because you didn't
Now for me: I'm Egyptian and proud. I admire Tomanbay (refer to the turkish root...and actually the street in Zatoun is called Tomanbey)...I'm not from Zeitoun, but I wouldn't mind...ah and the unemployed part? if what you're doing is considered work, i'd be glad to be called unemployed...I have more education than you can muster in a lifetime, I can teach you the ins and outs Mamluk and Ottoman history...so you know, drop by any time...and more importantly I have class...that's why I regret calling you F*cking Retarded Moron, while you on the other hand called me a pathetic, jerk, playboy, unemployed...and I'm still not hearing any apology from you
(As for the hamlet thing, of course I dont memorize the whole book...and I didnt quote it, FFE did, and I just "deducted" from what I know about the story, that it has nothing to do with the current situation) Cool off!
You call yourself "class"; just arrogant as your examples and I mean here the Danish PM who is now on Al Arabya channel crying for forgiveness and tolerance from Muslims.
You did not mention which class; lower I guess. To call someone fucking retarded moron punk, you must be from the lowest class in Egypt.
Boycott is a means and we have the right to use it and it is pretty effective. Every Muslim should start with himself and if you are a real Muslim, you would not fee sorry for those who insulting your prophet. Allah yehdeek in shaa Allah.
You can teach me history then, great. By the way, tonight is Friday night, not Thursday. You should study astronomy first before teaching me Islam's history.
**************************
Egypeter = Hakeer; almost same rhyme?
I am also Egyptian and Muslim; you are really IDIOT and IGNORANT. Tomanbay is far better than you; at least he tries to convey an idea, it is stupid though, but he tries hard at least. You are just chatterbox.
Sorry guys, It is Friday night and I have to go to the office tomorrow.
Allahom ehdena gamee3an!
As-slamo Alaikom wa Rahmatu Allah.
i cant believe that...I was tricked to that discussion...the whole thng was a joke right...funny...next time try to nail the pissed off charchter a bit better...take care...and thanks for the laugh buddy...u r hilarious!
Tomanbay, the whole thing is serious and I was not joking. Why you thought that?
I am not a big fan of Freedom of Egypt, but do not deny us the right even to boycott Danish products. We want to be fair, buddy. The Arab and Muslim ambassadors asked the Danis PM for a meeting and he refused. Now, he is begging it as you can see. Freedom is not synonym for irrespnisbility and making fun of others' religions and belief. You know that we - as Muslims - cannot even make fun of prophet Jesus or Moses, we respect the same.
This Danish newspaper does not dare to say a word about Jews or Judaism, not even Holocaust. So, why all this hypcricy. Just think about it and you will see that they are unfari and bias.
I am really glad that you cooled down. Really.
Listen, I never said that what happened was fair, or unbiased, or decent, or not plain-out outrageous. It is!! And, speaking at least for myself, I don't think that somebody would dare make fun of the prophet in front of me and get away with it, so I hope we agree that this should not be tolerated.
But...
I have two problems with our response to the thing:
1-We were random: we never knew what we want from that boycott, because if we wanted an apology, then I guess we got a lot of those. But instead, and after having the apology of the newspaper, we went on with the boycott. And here is where people started questioning our rationality, and I'll have to say that they have every right to do that.
2-The point I made above is valid provided I approved the boycotting method. But I don't. And here is the simple reason: you're punishing (assuming that you do) a whole country for the acts of one, two, or even hundred persons. You said it yourseld that we respect Jesus, Moses, and all other prophets, and that is indeed is part of our faith. How would you feel if Italy, Spain, Uk, or any country decided to boycott your country because sam wacko drawing cartoon in one of the many tabloids in the Arab world made fun of Jesus (and don't tell me it can't happen...I said assume he is crazy)...it can happen, right? so although you respect Jesus or Moses, you will be punished for disrespecting them!! So why did we assume bad intentions in Danish people (I can't recall any incident between Muslims and Danish whatsoever)
3-Things like boycotts, and demonstrations have an inhert problem to them...they're intense and can achieve temporal results, and in effect can make you feel that you achieved something, which you didn't. Because frankly in the case of Denamrk, even if the boycott really affected them (1.6 MD/day is nothing believe me, but even if), and they didn't do whatever you thought they were up to, do you think that this was out of respect for you and your religion? If you don't care for their respect for yourself, its up to you, but I do care a lot for their respect of Islam, because if you're a Muslim with a real mission that what you should aim for
The only way to have people respecting you and your beliefs is to be respectable, and unfortunately we are not doing enough in this department.
And please, and I beg you sincerly, don't put everybody in one category. If a cartoonist committed a wrong doing, then we should have issue with him alone, not all Danish people, let alone the whole west.
Thanks Tomanbay for your rational thinking, there are some gaps though.
First, the newspaper did not apologize for publishing the drawing, but just for hurting Muslims feelings and they insisted on the freedom of expression and all those other things they do promote for. There have been many drawings of prophet Muhammad, but this time it was very scornful. How can you describe a picture on a camel's ass. Is this freedom? I call it actually ill-manner and impoliteness.
If you can recall, the boycott just started recently. The Danish PM refused even to meet the Muslim and Arab ambassadors; see how arrogant he is.
You said: "We cannot punish a whole country because a punch of people did something wrong"; So, what we should do for the sake of our prophet? Believe me, some people get offended if you insult their president, not their prophet.
Tomanbay, you should read more about how Muslims are treated in Denmark. The survey showed it all (79% of Danes refused to apologize for offended Muslims).
What else we should do? Our dictatorships do not care; so now we should be all happy to see how people in the streets react and for the first time I see such solidarity between Muslims. The issue is really serious and the drawing are very despicable.
Democracy brought Hamas to power and now they threat Palestinians to stop aids and even the authority does not have money to pay for employees. Palestinians are starving. Can you tell me why they punish the whole Palestinian population for just electing Hamas through polls monitored by them?
Can you tell me why 6 million Iraqi children were 'killed' during embargo. Why they punish the whole Iraqi people, just to get to Saddam? Is this fair? Are they better than us? It is getting worse my friend and it will be worse as long as we have those stupid idiots who preach what they do not do. Freedom of speech stops when it comes to Jews. Why? FYI, Denmark has about 450 solider in Iraq helping the occupying forces.
I know that we have a lot of problems and character flaws, but it is just a matter of time in shaa Allah.
As a Muslim brother, I hope you can understand me Tomanbay. Defend for your Islam, prophet and Umma. Try to help, not to frustrate or fail them. Can you imagine what will happen if we did not try to do something about this? We might wake up tomorrow and find a porn film about our prophet. There must be limits set to those stupid arrogant Danes who cannot differentiate between freedom of speech and responsibility.
Fedaka Nafsy ya Rasool Allah.
...thanks for the idea...now you're really helping the cause!!!
And thanks because we brought the matter to what it really is all about: revenge and venting frustration against the opression that Muslims are faced in Iraq,Palestine, etc...
But again let me stree this:
1-Who said I approve of what is happening there either???
2-Who said that "they" are better than us?? For all I care, as Muslims, we should try to be better...and our real values and class shouls show in such controversial matters, not at times where there are no issues.
3-For the hundred's time: Who are "they"? You're saying that they're opressing the muslims in Iraq, and Palestine....the Danes??? Plz don't put all people in one category...So was the US right in ounishing the whole of Irq for what Saddam did??? Hell no!!! WIll they be right if they cut aid to Palestinians because Hamas won in democratic elections?? Hell, no...but who said that we as Muslims should take our foreign policy examples from the newcons at washington????
How about taking the examples of the Prophet (PBUH); how bout taking his example is Solh el Hadebya, or who about the fact that Muslims were sad that Romans were defeatd in war against persians...nobody said then that "they" are all infidels...now did they??...and finally how about "exhabo fantom eltola'kaa" (go, you're pardoing) which the Prophet (PBUH) told Quresh (which I am sure did much worse things to him than comic strips) when he entered Mecca triumphantly! How about Ali Ibn Abi-Taleb who refused to kill a man, in the middle of battle mind you, because he spit on him...when asked he told Muslims that if he had killed him then it will be out of revenge, and he would never do that!!! That's in the middle of the battle, he refuses to take revenge!!!
Thats the kind of conduct that we should try to emulate...The day when we take Bush as an example, the day we Muslims become really doomed!
Here is a message from a Muslim brother living in Denmark. I just put it here as it is without any modification.
******
Salamu alaikum wa rahmatulahi wa barakatu dear brothers and sisters I am a muslim living in Denmark. I want every muslim to undrstand that the danish politicians all the time argue about muslims and make expressions of hate. To the point.. All the time, since day one of the incident, when the danish newspaper decided to make fun of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (saaws). There has been a lot of talk about `The freedom of expression` and that this is the reason why nothing has been done towards the newspaper. Also the same excuse is used regarding the right of the newspaper to publish the drawings. Every single muslim on the face of the earth must understand that this has nothing to do with `Freedom of expresion`. In the danish constitution the `Freedom of expression` the §77 says: `Anybody has the right to, on print, by writting and speech, to make public his thoughts, but under responsibility of the court. Censorship and other such rules must never again exist.` This is the law in Denmark, but dear brothers and sisters please be aware of the subject of the matter! The Freedom of speech has NOTHING TO DO WITH DRAWINGS! All the talk about Freedom of speech is only to confuse people! To draw someone has nothing to do with speech or expression of thoughts, it is only a matter of making fun of the Hole Prophet. Many experts in Denmark has clearly statet from the very begining, that the newspaper only intended to provoke the muslims in order for muslims to react, so that the muslims, by reacting, would look like fools and people would become affraid and hate them even more. This evening several politicians has talked about revenge upon the Imam Ahmad abu Laban, because his mosque was the one who send the muslim delegation to the muslim world in the begining of this problem. Several politicians has already agreed to try to get Ahmad abu Laban kicked out of Denmark. Now you see how they play tricks! This is actually the politicians who are suppressing the freedom of speech! They want to punish Imam Ahmad abu Laban and others as such for speaking against the danish politicians.
******
Egyepter, I am sorry to tell you that you state but lies here. It is true that we do not make fun of any prophet and we as Muslims have respect to all prophets. Can you please state one example (from a newspaper or official media) that makes fun of Jesus Christ. Do not talk about the Sheikh in Egypt, you live in the United States and this does not make much sense to me. We are not talking here about individuals anyway. Denmark, government, media and people, supports the newspaper and refuses to apologize for Muslims. All this shit about freedom of speech is just lies and I have mentioned that before. This is the real hypocrisy, Egypeter.
I live in Egypt and we know how the situation is in Egypt. Alexanderia is another issue and please do not try to distract us here. Again that play was mocking at prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Do you want Muslims to defer? What are you going to do a Coptic if I mocked at Jesus and for sure I will never do that. Coptics are more fanatic than Muslims, believe it or not.
In Iraq, why we see all this is happening now in the country? Have you ever heard of a church bombed in Iraq before? Why this happens now? We do not want to be naïve Egypeter and give word more reasons to consider us “ignorant”; I quote you here Tomanbay J
Iraq is occupied by brutal and barbarian forces that do deter to use chemical weapons or White phosphorous (Willy Pete) in Falluja. Do not blame those people or even accuse Islam; it might be all due to revenge. Iraqi women are raped and abused.
Also, many Muslim leaders in Iraq commended the attacks on churches, but you may need to read more Arabic newspapers and keep yourself up-to-date.
Back to main topic, Danes are arrogant and I am very happy with what we have achieved so far by boycott which I think it is a civilized way to express your anger and dissatisfaction. Read this and cheer up J
http://www.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/D2EB79D1-6416-433F-96C2-8FC5BF191647.htm
oops, sorry
I meant:
many Muslim leaders in Iraq "condemned" the attacks on churches.
Mr. Anony.
Looks like you are not living in Egypt. I used to work for the Egyptian government for years and I have cases that prove discrimination cases against Copts when it comes to employment. SO PLEASE GIVE ME A BREAK!!!
I volunteered to work in a government orphanage during my weekends and this orphanage does not accept Copt orphans because they are not muslims. Instead of teaching muslims and copts how to co-exist, the EGyptian government is giving them the first lesson when they are kids, "not tolerate each other, given the supremacy of Islam"!!
And by the way, we are judging here upon Sheikhs's fatwas cause they are inciting hatred in their speeches and this is the case of Denmark. Could you tell me who is shitting in the peoples' ears to bring all this hatred???
By the way, if you are living in US, Europe I ask whoever is monitoring my blog to track you and get you from whereever you are inciting hatred!!!There are international laws for your cases.
If you do not like what I am saying, do not visit my blog again!! Thank you
If you are happy to what happened to the Danes, then definitely this not your place!! Go and propagate for your hatred and frustration somewhere else.
YOU ARE NOT WELCOME HERE AT ALL!! THERE ARE SO MANY PLACES THAT PROMOTES YOUR HATRED!! THIS IS MY BLOG!!!
The reason as to why the Danish government wants to "kick" the Imam, Laban, out of Denmark, is not because he told the muslims about the drawings - he has been spreading lies, he brought a lot of other drawings than the ones from the news paper, and let the muslim countries believe, that these were the drawings that were posted in the newspaper.
He is doing his best to create a hostile situation, and this is not helping Denmark - the country he lives in now.
The boycut of Danish products concerns less than 1% of the Danish export.
Furthermore, now that the muslim countries don't have any more butter, they have acceptet to bring back the Danish products in their stores - so I guess, they are only supporting the boycut as long as it's not interfering in their normal way of living.
The Danish Prime Minister has NOT been beggin about a meeting - he has invited to a meeting to find a friendly sollution to the problem - and to make it clear, that if muslims expect us Danes to understand their culture - and to understand how hurtful these drawings are to them - they must also understand that in Denmark we have the freedom of speach (and YES, this also includes drawings - I don't know how someone thought of interpretating it in any other way) and therefore the Government can't punish or appologise for something the newspaper has done.
Last but not least; a lot of muslims says aloud that Danes must die, that we are now contributing to terrorism. They burn our flag - and in Saudi Arabia, they even destroy our Bible, if we try to bring it in their country. They defend the last action by saying "it's illegal to bring a Bible here" - well in Denmark it's not illegal to draw muhammed, and you must try to understand this.
You cannot expect, that we shall respect you in every single way, when you don't do the same with us.
/A Dane - who don't understand why the "muslim in Denmark" don't move away from here, if we treat muslims as bad as you say.
I'm glad for my freedom of speak.
I'm glad that I can speak out without fear of my opinion.
I'm glad that I can vote freely.
I'm glad that I can choose religion of my wishes.
I'm glad that I'm a Dane
I'm sorry that others don't have the same options.
Søren, Denmark
Freedom for Egyptians (funny name); I do live in UAE and thanks for expressing your real 'freedom'. You want to jail me and you threaten me, just because I have a different opinion, you are a dictator just like our own presidents. At least, try to do what you preach. You are nothing but a big lie in the cyber space. I do not like your blog, it is just a piece of shit and I do not have time for this crab. I know you are coptic and please for one time try to be yourselves. Enough with hypocrisy; you do not like Muslims and you want to kick them out of Egypt because you believe it is yours, right?
Your blog; try to make it password-protected to prevent opposite opinions. How wonderful it will be when everybody says (yes) to your crab. Enjoy it. I wasted my time here actually.
I have many Christian friends in Egypt and they are not like you. They invite me to their wedding and I go to church to attend it, because they are my friends. But you and Egypeter are the ones who spread hatred here.
As for the Danes people, I am not for killing any human being or even an animal. All what I am up for is the boycott to send you a message that what happened is unacceptable and you have to respect us as we respect you. What's wrong with an apology if you insult me. What's wrong with that; just because you are arrogant. Try to be modest for a while and apologize for 1.4 Billion Muslims.
End of Discussions
Breaking News:
The State Department criticized the drawings, calling them "offensive to the beliefs of Muslims."
Thank you America. This is what I really like about America; No arrogance.
Tell me what you think now.
Everyboy believes those drawints are offensive to Muslims, except you guys and you know why.
There are some idiots and stupids who believe that when one defends the rights of minorities like Copts in Egypt then they believe this person is Copt.
And not only they are stupit with peanuts brains but they are cowards and delete their comments but they do know that i get comments even if deleted!
For the coward idiot stupid peanut head, let me scan my ID to prove for the coward that I am a muslim.
And if my blog is a "piece of shit" he is still unwelcomed peanut head!!!
Thanks Freedom for Egyptians, I am really happy to see you unveil you real image. People know now how you parents did not teach you good manners; you are just vulgar and let me pass this onto BBC soon.
One more thing, I did not delete any comment and I think you insulted Egypeter because he is the one who deleted one of his comments.
You can publish that deleted comment to see if it is mine or not; ha ha ha ha
The following describes your perfectly:
What's bred in the bone will come out in the flesh
In Arabic to make it clearer, it would read:
كل إناء بما فيه ينضح
Wa-salam Aliakom
Funny how muslims suddenly like USA and call them "not arrogant" because they have condemned these drawings...
Suddenly, the US became the friend! How interesting. I have some nice comments earlier published on other posts that proves that the US is a real friends to those people!! Unbelievable!
I can republish your deleted comment if you want and you have insults to me like "your blog is a piece of shit"....etc and so many that show the manners of hatred inciters that live among us under the protection of freedom. The message is signed by you. Mr. annonymous!!!
AS I TOLD YOU BEFORE DO NOT VISIT MY BLOG AGAIN YOU ARE UNWELCOMED HERE. HATRED INCITERS AND PROPAGATORS AGAINST OTHER NATIONS, RELIGIONS AND PEOPLE OF DIFFERENT EHTNIC BACKGROUNDS ARE NOT WELCOMED HERE!!
GO TO THE PEOPLE WHO ARE FULL OF HATRED AND FRUSTRATION AGAINST ALL FORMS OF CIVILIZATION LIKE YOU. THERE ARE PLENTY WHO FIT YOU!
Also funny to see, that the muslims think, we are mocking Islam, by drawing Muhammehd with a bomb - and to punish us for doing that, they are threatning to bomb us...
I wonder how people ever started to think terror and Islam had something in common...?
Well first of all im danish and ive been sitting here all night reading differet statements from all kinds of people having this and that idea.
Dang the whole internet is full of it.
Funny thing about it however is that the muslim people who started this thing is really people we allowed into our country as refugees.
These people are actually Iman´s in denmark supported by danish money. They simply copyed the drawings and even added a few more to show the leaders of the muslim countryes.
My guess is they wanted a bit of support and pressure on the government to get some of their points through... They got a bit more than they bargained for..
The newspaper has appologized for offending the muslim society but not for publishing the pictures and the local iman´s hurridly accepted that.
Im guessing they suddenly realised that they werent really furthering theyr own cause.
Rather they have brought more hate and dislike on themselves.
Some people say that we dont really have freedom of speech.. But really.. we do.
Well perhaps with on exception..
Open racism is illegal and people are prosecuted on that account here. Companies who fired muslim girls for wearing veils have been prosicuted and they had to pay substantial amounts.
Those pictures were never meant as anything but a joke. the government refuses to take a stand on this not only because of freedom of speech but because religion has NO place in politics.
It is up to every man to choose what rules he want to live by within the common ethical boundaries.
So.. You can be Hindu, Christian, Muslim and heck if you want to even Satanistic.
We whont recognise or allow forced arranged marriages and even try to stop it though. There are muslims killing their sister, daughters and their lovers here for crying out loud. By danish standards this is completely unacceptable.
Bah.. I dont get it. People flee their contryes out of fear for their own lives. Many of them because they violated laws by having their own oppinions. Now they get mad because everybody has the right to do as they pleace..
Dont get me wrong though.. Ive known plenty of muslim people and liked them.
Please read how rational Danes speak. I respect that guy. Please read:
'Like Jesus with an erect penis'
By The Copenhagen Post
Caricatures of Mohammed are the same as portraits of Jesus with an erect penis, according to vice prime minister Bendt Bendtsen.
________________________________________
Freedom of expression is important, but so is respect for other people, according to vice prime minister Bendt Bendtsen.
Bendtsen, the chairman of the conservative party and minister of economic and business affairs, said in an interview with daily newspaper Jyllands-Posten that freedom of speech was an important right, but it also carried with it an obligation to use good judgement.
Jyllands-Posten's decision to publish 12 caricatures of Mohammed has created a row that has pitted Denmark against the Muslim world.
'What Jyllands-Posten did is totally legal. I've got nothing against freedom of speech - it is important for us all - but if it can offend and hurt a lot of people, why use freedom of speech for that? This is about respecting other people's cultures,' Bendtsen said.
Bendtsen compared the 12 Jyllands-Posten caricatures of Mohammed to pictures of Jesus with an erect penis painted by Danish artist Jens Jørgen Thorsen.
'I was deeply affected by them. I didn't like them. Those are some of the same emotions,' he said, pointing out that it was not unheard of for Danes to get upset over misused religious symbols: Two summers ago, a grocery store was forced to stop selling flip flops with pictures of Jesus after religious groups complained.
Bendtsen said Danish newspapers could possibly learn something from US newspapers, which tended not to try to push the limits of what was permissible.
'In the US, freedom of expression is also important. At the same time, there is also a tradition of showing consideration for others,' he said.
'Religion is a deeply personal thing for a lot of people. I felt offended by the pictures of Jesus. Nor was I too keen about the sandals either.'
*****************
http://www.jp.dk/english_news/artikel:aid=3533352/
**************
There are still some rational Danes.
Actually, if you havent heard it from the start about the pictures, then i can tell you guys that the drawings was ment for a book about islam or likly. The writer of the book couldent find any who would draw these drawings, then the writer contacted Jyllands-posten, and they had a solution. It resulted in these 12 drawings. But all in all, i really dont see what the muslims are crying for (sorry my language)but this is a matter of fact, not a muslim contry, and for that dosent have the duty to live after the quran rules. However, the drawings should NEVER had walked beyond to other contrys, but only becuase of some imams, they were spreading, and then they were abused. The danish imams drawed fake drawing and told the muslim world that the drawings the imams had drawed was som of the drawing in jyllynds-posten, that why the muslim world is full of anger. The muslims beyond Denmark are actualy angry because of some imams who not is loyal to there contry the are living in. And this is redicules the danish people have to pay the consequenses for this.
And now the problem is out reech for peace, thanks to the muslims wont accept that the danish goverment doesnt own the newpaper Jyllands-posten and therfor CANT apologize for its "crime". But after my opinion the muslims only want that every contrys lives after there rules and the quran and cant accept other rules. after my opinion this problem now is about racism. Why should the danish goverment be responsible for courrupt imams? And why cant the muslim accept that the newspaper has send an apologize to the muslim people. I dont get the muslims. Muslims want respect, but they will not face it that these whining is gon long to far, and the muslim may suffer their respect for islam for the stupid case.
The christianitys dident ask for much apologize when the muslims burned the holy bible back in 1996.
The muslims act are very soon to redicules, when does muslims ever be accept others living "rules"?
Muslims, please accept that other contrys doesent have to follow the quran and close this case, its gettin very redicules.
You are the one who is very ridiculous. Forget what? Who you are to tell Muslims what to do? The last thing we need from you is your stupid advice to fail our prophet. Go read British newspapers and watch American meida to see how they condmen the republishing of those drawings. The whole thing was a mistake and an apology is due, but I really hope they do not apologize and I urge them to be more arrogant. Thanks for stirring up the fire of hatred between Muslims. Demographically, Europe will be a Muslim continent in the future, heopfully near one.
We are different and you have to repspect Muslims. Your freedom of speech is nonsense and hypocritical.
Freedom For Egyptians, I can write what I want and whenever I want. This is not your backyard and try to accept others and practise what you pretend to preach. And please please publish my 'deleted' comment, espcially if it says (your blog is piece of shit). I think I have a friend here.
We will continue boycotting Danish products until they apoloize clearly. Layoff soon in Arla Foods, good luck :-)
Yeah yeah, just go and boycot, the muslims need to now that they are not gonna tell any one in DK or whatever west contry to apologize, just whine over you kidkissing prophet. You muslims are redicules, you understand shit and are shit. Open your fucking eyes.
I am Allah, just go and boycot, the muslims need to now that they are not gonna tell any one in DK or whatever west contry to apologize, just whine over you kidkissing prophet. You muslims are redicules, you understand shit and are shit. Open your fucking eyes.
"Thanks for stirring up the fire of hatred between Muslims. Demographically, Europe will be a Muslim continent in the future, heopfully near one."
There you go and mix politics with religion again. with religion. What has the muslim beliefs to do with democracy?.
"Two summers ago, a grocery store was forced to stop selling flip flops with pictures of Jesus after religious groups complained."
The government never raised a finger in that matter. Religous people raged against it but it was the store keepers themselves who took them off the market. And it was done with a shrug.
Again..
The government doesnt own that newpaper.
This is to the comment posted on 11.38 PM.
You write, that we cannot tell the muslims what to do - but what are the muslims trying to do right now?
They are making us appologice (which the newspaper did - but that's suddenly not enough) they are trying to decide what we can print in our newspapers.
You say, that we should respect muslims - and then you continue saying, that our freedom of speach is nonsense and hypocritical.
Is that respecting us and our culture?
How can you ever think, that we'll respect you, if you don't respect us?
You don't earn respect through threaths of violence and terror!
Normally muslims despite the US and the UK - but now that they've condemned the drawings, you suddenly approve of them?
It must be a bit embarrasing to be so inconsequent - to shift sides from week to week - depending on who is pleasing you right now.
Finally, if you want to boycut ARLA - please do it all the way. Don't go buying our butter, because your own country can't produce enough.
Thank you.
This is clearly no longer a matter of some cartoons or the freedom of free speach !
This is more history repeating !
I'm quite afraid of some muslims wanting the rest of the wold to be like them ! Think like them ! Act like them !
I will by no means obey !
Will somebody please explain to me why people who don't even know where to find Denmark or are able to read a newspaper demonstrate ? They even want the King to apologize - well he died in 1972 !
Will somebody please explain to me why someone who fled their homecountry to a safe country (Denmark) goes back to tell lies about those cartoons - and even draw some of the same kind in order to get situation worse ?
This is getting way out of hand!
By the way - by burning the Danish flag they actually demonstrate totally ignorance for others as well !
Amusing, to certain extent. Would this mean that we, europeans with rather free press and common equality between men and women, should bow down to a mere religion because they are too conservative to notice that world's changing, all the time, without their consent? Maybe that's what is angering them...
But it's always distasteful to resort to threatening. From history books I've learned that muslim countries were once the edge of technological innovation. Why isn't this so anymore? Does their religion discourage innovation? It certainly seems so.
May the free european populace help Denmark. And all jihadists, do know this: more you cause terror, more you cause anger towards your whole religion. That might prove to be your undoing, and face it, untold numbers will suffer only because of a minor fraction of foolish idiots who cannot tolerate a small jibe on their religion.
it is a such a relief to see that it is not a Muslim's position but just religious demagogy's and political radical's way of thinking.Muslims in Gaza have same rights to dictate to Danish people what to do as Danish people to dictate them.let them mind there own business .What is shocking to me that EU is biggest donor of Palestine and biggest supporter of Arabs in the world and this is a feedback?
There are many other things forbidden in Islam or in various branches of Islam, so what?Let Muslims follow those rules and do not try to impose those rules on others. Why Buddhist do not impose Buddhist's believes on the rest of the world?
thank you for being civilized Muslims . I praise bravery of Jordan news paper reprinted cartoons and praise you. You are the hope of civilized world!!!Question, why other reasonable people of Muslim faith do not vocal enough in condemnation of those fanatics?
al
"Why this freedom of speech has limits when it comes to the holocaust or talking about Jews. You are all hypocrites and trying to sell what you do not own."
first of all it is not true world press especially in muslim countries is all over with ant jewish materials and even anti Semitic material. it is sad and regrettable but no body trying to kill nobody because of that
but, second of all, denial of holocaust would be verifiable lie and as a untrue can have legal implications, cartoon is a satire and you have to be completed idiot to compare to things.
Are you trying to say that you are happy that the Danish government has still not apologized to Muslims all over the world ? Even though it has hurt each and every true Muslim's feelings?
It is a shame that people have stopped thinking about other's.
True Muslims only know how it feels to be hurt. We will make the government of Denmark apologize for what they have done.
Our brothers will not tolerate it. They are trying to demonize Islam. This is a conspiracy launched by the West against Islam.
to muslim unity !
“Are you trying to say that you are happy that the Danish government has still not apologized to Muslims all over the world ? Even though it has hurt each and every true Muslim's feelings? “
when Muslims demolished 2000 years old Buddhas in Afghanistan, when they are routinely burning flags of countries they do not long what is offensive by all means for citizens of those countries, when they are killing by the name of God innocent people considering that they are glorifying by such action their religion , nobody from Muslin side apologizing or even considering any kind of wrongdoing. It is normal for Muslims to offend others. But when in other countries, which are not Muslim countries happening something what they are not like it is became a “muslim problem”.
For what Denmark have to apologize? For the fact that they are not Muslims and therefore do not have to follow Muslim rules?
mid your own business and do not interment in other people’s houses with your rules.
you wrote:”Our brothers will not tolerate it. They are trying to demonize Islam. This is a conspiracy launched by the West against Islam.”
Your brothers will not tolerate anything but Islam and will try to kill us anyway, no matter what we will do. It is not a conspiracy of the west this is the nature of problem. If not cartoons you would find something else, like in France riots or killing Teo Van Gohg and … list is go on.
West is against Islam? Are you kidding ? West supported Afghanistan in its fight soviets, west supported Bosnians and Albans against Serbs, EU is a biggest donor of Palestine and US is a huge donor of Egypt. What Muslims did to deserve it? They are always hysterical, always armed always dangerous. Worst conspiracy against Islam is what is going on in Islam itself.
Please take a reasonable look on the situation .
It looks like Muslims are, for some reasons, claiming exclusivity and imposing their view of the world on all others.
And, by the way, it is not Muslims against West, it is Muslims against the rest of the globe. Take a look on the vote about Iran! Your company are 3 crazy regimes Cuba, Venezuela and Syria. All other world on the opposite side.
Why nobody apologized for these cartoons?
http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/Offensive_Cartoons.asp
Double standard?
Why nobody apologized for these cartoons?
Go to the website following link below:
http://www.pmw.org.il/
Double standard?
Who can name any other religion besides Islam that supports terrorism to honor God?
May be it is offensive to other people to be terrorized by the name of God?
Excellent cartoons, just to the point !!!!
anonymous wrote : “Who you are to tell Muslims what to do? “
anonymous, if you will think you will understand that in this situation is the Muslim side trying to tell what to do ( publish) and to do not do ( publish)
anonymous wrote : “Go read British newspapers and watch American meida to see how they condmen the republishing of those drawings.’
Anonymous, Do get so cozy yet those papers are not speaking for me , read American and British blogs and you will see what we are thinking. Long live Denmark!!!!
PLZ PLZ DENMARK don't appologize to them ! we support you !!
this is not just about cartoons wars , IT's about ideology wars
its Freedom vs islam ideology .
you have no idea how it feel to live as a minority in a muslim country!
they even starting to burn churches
here , some protesters even go to
MC Donald to protest ( when MCD is US company and nothing to do with this)
www.faithfreedom.org to see more about islam !
"How appalling for the country of the First Amendment [protecting the freedom of the press] to be represented by such an administration."
Christopher Hitchens
i am with you Christopher!!!
A Letter to Mankind
Dear fellow human,
Today humanity is being challenged. Unthinkable atrocities take place on daily basis. There is an evil force at work that aims to destroy us. The agents of this evil respect nothing; not even the lives of children. Every day there are bombings, every day innocent people are targeted and murdered. It seems as if we are helpless. But we are not!
The ancient Chinese sage Sun Zi said, "Know your enemy and you won't be defeated". Do we know our enemy? If we don't, then we are doomed.
Terrorism is not an ideology, it is a tool; but the terrorists kill for an ideology. They call that ideology Islam.
The entire world, both Muslims and non-Muslims claim that the terrorists have hijacked "the religion of peace" and Islam does not condone violence.
Who is right? Do the terrorists understand Islam better, or do those who decry them? The answer to this question is the key to our victory, and failure to find that key will result in our loss and death will be upon us. The key is in the Quran and the history of Islam.
Those of us, who know Islam, know that the understanding of the terrorists of Islam is correct. They are doing nothing that their prophet did not do and did not encourage his followers to do. Murder, rape, assassination, beheading, massacre and sacrilege of the dead "to delight the hearts of the believers" were all practiced by Muhammad, were taught by him and were observed by Muslims throughout their history.
If truth has ever mattered, it matters most now! This is the time that we have to call a spade a spade. This is the time that we have to find the root of the problem and eradicate it. The root of Islamic terrorism is Islam. The proof of that is the Quran.
We are a group of ex-Muslims who have seen the face of the evil and have risen to warn the world. No matter how painful the truth may be, only truth can set us free. Why this much denial? Why so much obstinacy? How many more innocent lives should be lost before YOU open your eyes? A nuclear disaster is upon us. This will happen. It is not a question of "if" but "when". Oblivious of that, the world is digging its head deeper in the sand.
We urge the Muslims to leave Islam. Stop with excuses, justifications and rationalizations. Stop dividing mankind into "us" vs. "them" and Muslims vs. Kafirs. We are One people, One mankind! Muhammad was not a messenger of God. It is time that we end this insanity and face the truth. The terrorists take their moral support and the validation for their actions from you. Your very adherence to their cult of death is a nod of approval for their crimes against humanity.
We also urge the non-Muslims to stop being politically correct lest they hurt the sensitivities of the Muslims. To Hell with their sensitivities! Let us save their lives, and the lives of millions of innocent people.
Millions, if not billions of lives will be lost if we do nothing. Time is running out! "All it takes for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing." Do something! Send this message to everyone in your address book and ask them to do the same. Defeat Islam and stop terrorism. This is your world, save it.
The ex-Muslim Movement
www.faithfreedom.org
DO YOU KNOW THIS PERSONALITY?!
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was a mercy to all human beings, regardless of their religious background. We, as his followers, must live and spread this message today at a time when hatefulness and ugliness towards each other has become the norm.
The statements of the world well-known personalities about the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), like Sir George Bernard Shaw, Michael H. Hart, Encyclopedia Britannica, Thomas Calyle, Mahatma Gandhi, Lamar Tine and Prof. Rama Krishna Rao etc.
ENCYCLOPEDIA BRITANNICA confirms:
".... A mass of detail in the early sources show that he was an honest and upright man who had gained the respect and loyalty of others who were like-wise honest and upright men." (Vol. 12)
Sir George Bernard Shaw in 'The Genuine Islam,' Vol. 1, No. 8, 1936.
"If any religion had the chance of ruling over England, nay Europe within the next hundred years, it could be Islam."
"I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion, which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence, which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion far from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Savior of Humanity."
"I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today."
He was by far the most remarkable man that ever set foot on this earth. He preached a religion, founded a state, built a nation, laid down a moral code, initiated numerous social and political reforms, established a powerful and dynamic society to practice and represent his teachings and completely revolutionized the worlds of human thought and behavior for all times to come.
"HIS NAME IS MUHAMMAD" May Peace of God Be Upon Him (pbuh) He was born in Arabia in the year 570 C.E. (common era), started his mission of preaching the religion of Truth, Islam (submission to One God) at the age of forty and departed from this world at the age of sixty-three.
During this short period of 23 years of his Prophethood, he changed the complete Arabian peninsula from paganism and idolatry to worship of One God, from tribal quarrels and wars to national solidarity and cohesion, from drunkenness and debauchery to sobriety and piety, from lawlessness and anarchy to disciplined living, from utter bankruptcy to the highest standards of moral excellence. Human history has never known such a complete transformation of a people or a place before or since - and IMAGINE all these unbelievable wonders in JUST OVER TWO DECADES.
MICHAEL H. HART in his recently published book on ratings of men who contributed towards the
benefit and upliftment of mankind writes:
"My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular levels." (M.H. Hart, THE 100: A RANKING OF THE MOST INFLUENTIAL PERSONS IN HISTORY, New York, 1978, p. 33) Lamar tine the renowned historian speaking on the essentials of human greatness wonders:
"If greatness of purpose, smallness of means and astounding results are the three criteria of human genius, who could dare to compare any great man in modern history with Muhammad? The most famous men created arms, laws and empires only. They founded, if anything at all, no more than material powers which often crumbled away before their eyes. This man moved not only armies, legislation, empires, peoples and dynasties, but millions of men in one-third of the then inhabited world; and more than that, he moved the altars, the gods, the religions, the ideas, the beliefs and souls.... his forbearance in victory, his ambition, which was entirely devoted to one idea and in no manner striving for an empire; his endless prayers, his mystic conversations with God, his death and his triumph after death; all these attest not to an imposture but to a firm conviction which gave him the power to restore a dogma. This dogma was two-fold, the unity of God and the immateriality of God; the former telling what God is, the latter telling what God is not; the one overthrowing false gods with the sword, the other starting an idea with the words.
"Philosopher, orator, apostle, legislator, warrior, conqueror of ideas, restorer of rational dogmas, of a cult without images, the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is MUHAMMAD. As regards all the standards by which Human Greatness may be measured, we may well ask, IS THERE ANY MAN GREATER THAN HE?"
(Lamar tine, HISTOIRE DE LA TURQUIE, Paris, 1854, Vol. II, pp 276-277)
The world has had its share of great personalities. But these were one-sided figures who distinguished themselves in but one or two fields, such as religious thought or military leadership. The lives and teachings of these great personalities of the world are shrouded in the mist of time. There is so much speculation about the time and place of their birth, the mode and style of their life, the nature and detail of their teachings and the degree and measure of their success or failure that it is impossible for humanity to reconstruct accurately the lives and teachings of these men.
Not so this man. Muhammad (pbuh) accomplished so much in such diverse fields of human thought and behavior in the fullest blaze of human history. Every detail of his private life and public utterances has been accurately documented and faithfully preserved to our day. The authenticities of the record so preserved are vouched for not only by the faithful followers but also even by his prejudiced critics.
Muhammad (pbuh) was a religious teacher, a social reformer, a moral guide, an administrative colossus, a faithful friend, a wonderful companion, a devoted husband, a loving father - all in one. No other man in history ever excelled or equaled him in any of these different aspects of life - but it was only for the selfless personality of Muhammad (pbuh) to achieve such incredible perfections.
MAHATMA GANDHI Speaking on the character of Muhammad, (pbuh) says in YOUNG INDIA:
"I wanted to know the best of one who holds today's undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind.... I became more than convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet, the scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to this friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the 2nd volume (of the Prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of the great life."
THOMAS CALYLE in his HEROES AND HEROWORSHIP, was simply amazed as to:
"How one man single-handedly, could weld warring tribes and wandering Bedouins into a most powerful and civilized nation in less than two decades."
"The lies (Western slander) which well-meaning zeal has heaped round this man (Muhammad) are disgraceful to ourselves only."
"A silent great soul, one of that who cannot but be earnest. He was to kindle the world, the world's Maker had ordered so."
DIWAN CHAND SHARMA wrote:
"Muhammad was the soul of kindness, and his influence was felt and never forgotten by those around him." (D.C. Sharma, THE PROPHETS OF THE EAST, Calcutta, 1935, pp. 12)
EDWARD GIBBON and SIMON OCKLEY speaking on the profession of ISLAM write:
"'I BELIEVE IN ONE GOD, AND MAHOMET, AN APOSTLE OF GOD' is the simple and invariable profession of Islam. The intellectual image of the Deity has never been degraded by any visible idol; the honor of the Prophet has never transgressed the measure of human virtues; and his living precepts have restrained the gratitude of his disciples within the bounds of reason and religion." (HISTORY OF THE SARACEN EMPIRES, London, 1870, p. 54) Muhammad (pbuh) was nothing more or less than a human being. But he was a man with a noble mission, which was to unite humanity on the worship of ONE and ONLY ONE GOD and to teach them the way to honest and upright living based on the commands of God. He always described himself as, 'A Servant and Messenger of God,' and so indeed every action of his proclaimed to be.
The famous poetess of India, SAROJINI NAIDU says:
"It was the first religion that preached and practiced democracy; for, in the mosque, when the call for prayer is sounded and worshippers are gathered together, the democracy of Islam is embodied five times a day when the peasant and king kneel side by side and proclaim: 'God Alone is Great'... I have been struck over and over again by this indivisible unity of Islam that makes man instinctively a brother." S. Naidu, IDEALS OF ISLAM, vide Speeches & Writings, Madras, 1918, p. 169)
In the words of PROF. HURGRONJE:
"The league of nations founded by the prophet of Islam put the principle of international unity and human brotherhood on such universal foundations as to show candle to other nations." He continues: "The fact is that no nation of the world can show a parallel to what Islam has done towards the realization of the idea of the League of Nations."
The world has not hesitated to raise to divinity, individuals whose lives and missions have been lost in legend. Historically speaking, none of these legends achieved even a fraction of what Muhammad (pbuh) accomplished. And all his striving was for the sole purpose of uniting mankind for the worship of One God on the codes of moral excellence. Muhammad (pbuh) or his followers never at any time claimed that he was a Son of God or the God-incarnate or a man with divinity - but he always was and is even today considered as only a Messenger chosen by God.
K. S. RAMAKRISHNA RAO, an Indian Professor of Philosophy in his booklet, "Muhammad, The Prophet of Islam," calls him the "PERFECT MODEL FOR HUMAN LIFE." Prof. Ramakrishna Rao explains his point by saying: "The personality of Muhammad, it is most difficult to get into the whole truth of it. Only a glimpse of it I can catch. What a dramatic succession of picturesque scenes! There is Muhammad, the Prophet. There is Muhammad, the Warrior; Muhammad, the Businessman; Muhammad, the Statesman; Muhammad, the Orator; Muhammad, the Reformer; Muhammad, the Refuge of Orphans; Muhammad, the Protector of Slaves; Muhammad, the Emancipator of Women; Muhammad, the Judge; Muhammad, the Saint. All in all these magnificent roles, in all these departments of human activities, he is alike a hero."
Today after a lapse of fourteen centuries, the life and teachings of MUHAMMAD (pbuh) have survived without the slightest loss, alteration or interpolation. They offer the same undying hope for treating mankind's many ills, which they did when he was alive. This is not a claim of Muhammad's (pbuh) followers but also the inescapable conclusion forced upon by a critical and unbiased history.
The least you could do, as Muslims or non-Muslims, as thinking and concerned human beings, is to stop for a moment and ask yourself: These statements/comments sounding so extraordinary and revolutionary come from renown and intellectually honest and internationally recognized persons of their times who were not Muslim. Isn't it time for all Muslims and non Muslims to respond to this tremendous challenge and put in some effort to know him, follow him and emulate him in our day to day life? It will cost us nothing but it may prove to be the beginning of a completely new era in our lives.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Courtesy: Abdullah AM [abdullahmamo@yahoo.co.uk]
Compiled, edited and adapted by Khalid Latif
This case is now only a matter of racism from the muslims. Nothing else. The muslims who damage embassies and the danes, norwegian, sweedish and other western europe and american flags is ONLY about racism. Nothing else. Muslims have so big problems to listen. They ONLY belive in what they want. Its a shame, i think, if the muslims could learn to accept other contries and nationalities, im sure that the builing in iraq and their welfare would grow very fast. But they can only blame them selfs. The world does so much for them. Muslims, get over it. It is only a cartoon who could be named King kong. Does death of totally inisent people really revenges the little cartoons.
Wasent it a idea to prove the world that islam not is a terror religion?
To those Islamic extremists who said that there is enough with muslims i Europe to make a hell.Beware of all the free peoples anger in Europe and specally the people from Scandinavia!
We have been tolerant against fundamentalists for a long time now.But don´t even think that we have tolerans for a bit more.If any terror will happened here against any Scandinavian church or humans you scums will se the worst hell since the viking time!
To all extremist,beware of the nordic anger that have been sleept for many centuries!!
To all of you others,hindus,buddists,juwes,good muslims,black or white.All of you who loves the free world and speach,keep on to fight the terrorregimes and keep on fighting for the equal rights between sex,rase or belives.We will win over those people who can´t respect the human rights around the world!!!!
Salute the free world and the free speach where ever you live!!!
Hamlet also said: "To be, or not to be...that is the question..."
It’s after all some humour in this debacle, core Islam countries is boycotting a country who’s main export is pig meat and beer. :-)
http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/
“You know that those cartoons were published for the 1st time months ago and we here in the Middle East have tonnes of jokes about Allah, the prophets and the angels that are way more offensive, funny and obscene than those poorly-made cartoons, yet no one ever got shot for telling one of those jokes or at least we had never seen rallies and protests against those infidel joke-tellers.
What I want to say is that I think the reactions were planned to be exaggerated this time by some Middle Eastern regimes and are not mere public reaction.
And I think Syria and Iran have the motives to trigger such reactions in order to get away from the pressures applied by the international community on those regimes.
However, I cannot claim that Muslim community is innocent for there have been outrageous reactions outside the range of Syria's or Iran's influence but again, these protests and threats are more political than religious in nature.”
what do you think?
from rim to khalaf:
“i'm muslim let's talk together “
OK let us talk, thank you for that opportunity, because I really have a lot of questions and comments on what I would like to get your feedback.
Nobody said that all Muslims are terrorists, if I accidentally said so, please forgive me and if anybody else said so I am with you on that, they are wrong. Problem is not that all Muslims are terrorist but that all terrorists that threatening to my country (USA) are Muslims ,this is the fact. For example all people on plains 9/11 were Muslims. Any objections about that?
You are saying that it was a small bad part of Muslims. May be you was right, but it does not bring me any relief, because that small part is killing people daily with no mercy, by the way killing Muslims as well. Why the good majority of your people will not stop a bad minority? Why they even do not protest? I see demonstration against cartoons and I wonder why I do not see protest against Muslim terrorism? Your “ good “ majority support your “ bad” minority morally electing terrorists in government .If indeed, for any people there is a bad part, yours is so active that it is no longer the problem of your people only it is a global problem, global threat.
You are saying that they are Muslims by name only. I do not think so. Tell please , why so many imams among them? Why official religion does not condemn it?
Can we talk together? Of course we can, we must, I would say. And thank you for your invitation to dialog it means a lot to me personally. But why do you think we have to talk about your prophet? I do not think that I must know more about prophet to appreciate Muslim terrorism better. If our problem is terrorism let us talk about terrorism. I have no problem with prophet, why should we talk about prophet? I do not want to talk about Mohammed or about Buddha or about Christ. It is not about religion. It has nothing to do with religion. It is about me , who do not want to leave following Muslim standards of good and bad , and about you who want to explain me why I have to accept your standards. I have no problem with Muslim values in Muslim countries unless they not imposed on other people and ,first of all ,not imposed on other countries. Can you explain me why do you care what Denmark is doing? Denmark never imposed its value on any Muslim county. Why it has to follow your rules? If Muslim law forbids depicting of prophet it is forbidden for Muslims, why should I care? Do you care about things that you are doing and which are forbidden by Buddhism, Judaism, and Christianity? No, you do not. Here is the essence of the problem: Muslim religion is only religion that claims exclusivity today. It claims right to ignore other people’s values and in the same time it demands all other people to follow Muslim’s values. And I do not agree with that unreasonable and very dangerous ambition of Muslim culture today. This is my vision of problem. Now tell me what am I missing?
thank you for your feedback:)
rim
hello abuhazem!
“we all msulims respect but we believe it shouldnt include insults from any type”
Really ? what about anti-Semitic cartoons routinely published all over the middle east ? what about demolished Buddha’s in Afghanistan? What about Teo Van Gogh killed by Muslim extremist? Is any muslim protested any of those actions? No!!!How many times you burned American flag? And list go on… And I repeat again it is NOT about freedom of speech it is about right of non Muslim countries live without considerations Muslim ways,. They are your laws you have to follow them. Are you following Christian, Buddhist, Jewish law? No! why we have to follow yours? Cartoons is a not violent form of expression ! Are you offended? Too bad, Deal with that without threatening to behead others. May be cartoons was a bad idea, but it is nothing in comparison with reaction on the cartoons. Hysteria and terror as a response on cartoons? Why anybody would respect such a reaction?
rim
Thank you for the feedback , Abouhazem!
Again I never said that all Muslims are terrorist.
What I am saying is that all terrorists who threatening world globally are Muslims. I mean that all terrorists who are making intrusions in foreign countries with terrorist acts deliberately targeting civilians all of those terrorist are Muslims. How you would explain that fact? I want understands that fact not an Islam itself. I do not have problems with Islam per se I have problems with:
1. Islamic terrorism
2. Claim of Islam that all infidels have to follow Islamic rules around the world.
3. Moral support that all non- terrorists Muslims are providing to Muslim terrorists, by not protesting and not condemning terror therefore supporting morally terror .
I think it is a double standard when you offended by cartoons and in the same time not offended by terror created by the name of your religion. Normally Muslims would violently protest around the world not against cartoons but against terror by other Muslims.
what would you say?
Thanks
rim:)
Hello agin, Abouhazem!
I really appreciate your openness and ready readiness for dialog!!
“the eta group in spain,the irish army in England”
First of al I said “all terrorists who threatening world GLOBALLY are Muslims.”
ETA and IRA are local domestic terrorist they are not operating in other countries .Agenda of those groups is a separatism and they not declaring jihad on infidels. Basks in Spain and Irishmen in Great Britain not declaring war to all Protestants or Catholics around the world. Muslims terrorism is different because it is
1. GLOBAL: all infidels are targets. All Jews or, all Americans ( since recently Danish and French and Norwegians and list is go on)
2. RELIGIOUS: Ira not generalize that all protestants are their target , it is no analog to Muslim jihad as a justification of terrorism in any other religion.
3. STATE BASED : no other terrorism supported by state governments like Iran and Syria support hessbollah and hamas .
“in every religion&every nation there r extremists,”
There is a big difference between terrorism and extremism! May be every nation and every religion has own extremists but we are not talking about EXTREMISM we are talking about TERRORISM .You are not saying that in every religion and every country there are terrorists? I understand that political extremism unavoidable but I will insist that terrorism is could and must be confronted, morally, legally and if it is necessary militarily.
I did read your website, thank you! But it is not exactly what we are talking about. I am sure in your Holly books there are words that will not tolerate terrorism. I have no problem with words. My problem is deeds not words. Again I see violent and uneatable reaction on cartoons with demand to exterminate those who created cartoons but I do not see any visible protest against terrorism in Muslim world. May be only in Jordan, and only when Jordanians themselves became victims of terrorism.
Again, it is my right not be interested in Islam and do not be a subject of application of any Muslim rules on me. Why do you think non Muslims have to follow rules established by Muslims?
Thank you for your dialog!
Rim:)
Hello Abouhazem!
I am really impressed with you willingness to talk and openness in the dialog. Thank you for your trust! I greatly appreciate your explanations and I sincerely trying to understand your position. Let me be as honest with you as you are open with me. I still do not agree in the main points:
“THINK IT IS CRUCIAL THAT FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION IS ALWAYS COMBINED WITH FREEDOM OF RELIGION AND RESPECT OF RELIGIOUS FEELINGS AND BELIEFS,MY GOVERNMENT CONDEMNSANY EXPRESSIONAND ACTION THAT OFFENDS PEOPLE'S RELIGIOUS FEELINGS.”
Tell me please, in what way Freedom of religion was compromised by cartoons? Is anybody limited freedom of Muslims to worship and observe Islam in Denmark? No! So nothing happened with freedom of religion in this case. As a matter of fact in Demark way more mosques than protestant churches in Egypt isn’t it? So cartoons are not limiting freedom of religion.
RESPECT?
You cannot force people to respect anything . Your friends are telling “Respect it , or you will be beheaded”! Respect must be earned , not extorted. And, one more, time again, are you seriously saying that in Muslim countries other religions and cultures are respected? Tell me what do you think about numerous anti Semitic, anti American and anti Christian cartoons and actions that routinely through decades are taking place in the Muslim countries! Burning flags ! Tell me something about that.
Your religion is Islam ours is a FREE SPEECH. You cannot demand respect of your rules with no respect to ours.
OFFENDED?
You are offended? I understand that and I am truly sorry about that ,but you have to understand that, as long as offence was not violent, response have to be not violent as well. If you offended it does not mean that you have a right to intimidate others with death threats and burned embassies.
After all, those cartoons did not come from nowhere. It is a result of decade of Islamic terrorism by name of your God. What we suppose to do? We fight terrorism you are saying that we are oppressors, we laugh on that you are saying we are offending your feelings. In your view we can do nothing .
In my view essential reason of all this conflict is the whole idea of JIHAD a “holly” war. TERROR is a tactic and the strategy of this “holly” war against us . It give us any right to use religion which used as a justification of the ware against us against us as a target. It was Muslims who brought religion in that context through concept of Jihad. If you are so protective about your religious feelings you have to keep your religion out of business of killing others like all other religious do it today. If your Imams preaching terror and if Jihad is the essential part of your religion, no way that we will respect that religiously just because it is a religiously. I am sorry to tell you that, and please try to understand the way of my thinking.
AND I DONT FEEL A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GLOBAL OR LOCALIZED TERRORISM
It is a huge difference.
Can you give me example of any other terrorism today, which is religious by nature? Only Muslim terrorists are using religion as a moral shield for justification of terrorism. Only Muslim terrorists have a concept of Holly war. Only Muslim terrorists are beheading people on camera. As we speak Muslim terrorists are holding hostages , what about that? Does your government care that it may be hurting other people’s feelings? Why your government does not condemn that in the same scale as it condemn cartoons? Why Muslims does not protest that in the same scale? Local terrorism is a threat to concrete country , are global terrorism is a threat to HUMANKIND and it is a big difference. Global terrorism supported by states, like Iran and Syria , local terrorism does not have state support. Local terrorism has concrete goals ( separation of territory) For global terrorism, it is not enough to separate land they are going to destroy other lands( death to America , death to Israel and since recently death to France , death to Denmark death to Norwegian … who will be next?)
No, I will insist GLOBAL terrorism is different and Muslim terrorism is GLOBAL.
If we will miss this distinction we are missing the point.
BUT THE IMPACT OF WHAT THEY DO DELAYS ANY GOOD DEEDS OR THE CONDEMNATION OF THEIR ACT IN MUSLIM WORLD AS I TOLD U FOR AN EXAMPLE THE AZHAR ALWAYS CONDEMNS ANY ACTS LIKE THESE,THESE PEOPLE DO THESE STUPID THINGS FROM THEIR OWN POINT OF VIEW,BUT WHEN ITS DONE THE FINGERS POINT TO ISLAM,ALTHOUGH ISLAM HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THEM,
Wait a second my friend!
How many newspapers are in the west ? Millions!!!! How many of them printed cartoons? Few!!!!! Did your government or other protestors condemn these concrete newspapers? No , they condemn West in general , Danish government etc. Why you again not following rules yourself that you are trying to impose on others? If you do not like that all Muslims are hold responsible for act of few Muslims why you are holding all west responsible for the act of few newspapers? What Danish diplomats in Syria and Lebanon has to do with printing of those newspapers? It is either you are not doing generalizations about west because of few newspapers or be ready that on the west will be done same generalizations about whole Islam because of actions of few. It cannot be both ways for you.
THEY R MUSLIMS AND SPEAK WITHOUT ANY RIGHT TO DO SO IN THE NAME OF ISLAM,AND THATS WHAT HAPPENED TO U,CONNECTION BETWEEN ANY TERRORISM AND ISLAM WHICH IS ABSOLUTLY WRONG!!
I do not know about that, I trust your word on that. But problem is that all we see is a terrorism, violent protests, beheadings of hostages, civilians killed and threats , threats, threats and permanent hysteria . I believe you, my friend! I believe that majority of Muslims against that , but I DO NOT SEE IT. And unless you are not make it visible it will not change . I believe that if majority of Muslims would demonstrate against terrorism would disappear and at least would be marginalized and, as a result would lose it global scale. But so far you have no time to protest against terrorism because you are busy protesting against cartoons. An it is very sad.
Thank you again, and I hope that I will get your feedback again. I think what we do is precisely what must be happening ,it is a dialog with mutual concern and sincere openness to each other.
Please do not bee offended with my thoughts try to prove me wrong.
Thanks
Rim
I don´t understand why anyone wants to boycott Arla. That company has nothing whatsoever to do with what was publisched in Jyllandsposten. In Scandinavia we have free press and free enterprice and a constitution that forbid government to intervene in what is printed in a newspaper. If muslims feel insulted by the cartoons in question beacuse they depict muslims as a bunch of terrorists than how can the proper response to that be to harm danish company´s that doesn´t have any say in what is printed or not printed in Jyllandsposten. I don´t understand that at all!
ABAOUT ARLA:
Hi Anonymous!
I think it is a clear example of ideological black mail through economic means.
There are two things that could be done in this situation:
1.
I think Danish companies must hold responsible those Danish Imams who started all this outrageous ideological war. How about to sue them? I bet they have money and could be liable in that case. They are subject of Danish law and must be held responcible in theis case.
2.
you must raise the question in the EU about compensating companies like ARLA from money that are going to be part of financial AID to middle eastern countries. Withhold EU and Danish financial aid to countries participating in the boycott.
3.
demand that US will cut financial aid to those countries and establish instead compensational fund for companies hilted by boycott. I am a US taxpayer and would rather see my taxpayers $$ will go to ARLA than to support ideological blackmail.
To Abouhazem,
From Rim
Thank you for your feedback again Abouhazem, I missed you already :))
1ST,I FELT FROM UR WORDS THAT U THINK CHRISTIANS R ILL TREATED IN MUSLIM
i did not mean Christians are ill treated I meant that cartoons have nothing to do with freedom of religion and do not compromise freedom of religion in any way. I think we are both agree on that.
THAT IS WHAT MADE THE PROBLEM,I MEAN IF SOMEONE MOCKED OR INSULTED SOMEONE THAT FOR U HE IS A GREAT THING LIKE UR FATHER UR HUSBAND,THE PERSON U MOST LIKE IN THE WORLD,WHAT WOULD U DO?
I would be outraged I would be offended and I would never had communications with somebody who offended me . I would may be sue him or protest in any legal and non violent matter. May be I would boycott its goods,( I think you have right to do that because it is non violent form of protest) You can see my position on the boycott in my comments above . I would be very upset but I would deal with that. As a matter of fact it is not a hypothetical situation. I see many very offensive materials in Muslim countries every day, it is offensive but I deal with that without burning embassies and demanding deaths on those countries.
So I told you what I would do. Now what I would not do:
I would not threaten anybody with death not burn its embassy do not suggest another 9/11 on the Denmark .
THINK IT WOULD BE PASSIVE TO JUST STAY LIKE THAT,WE HAD TO DO SOMETHING TO LET THE ONE WHO INSULTED OUR PROPHET TO KNOW HOW MUCH HE MEANS TO US(EXCLUDING THE VIOLENT ACTIONS THAT WERE TAKEN WHICH WE ALL REFUSE)
Wait a second, my friend . Breaking news http://freedomforegyptians.blogspot.com/2006/02/egyptian-newspaper-pictures-that.html on this blog . According to this blog “Egyptian Newspaper Pictures that Published Cartoons 5 months ago “
How you will react on that How your government will react on that. Will it demand apologies form Egyptian government to Muslims? If not why ?
Another comment for Muslims about the situation:
“You know that those cartoons were published for the 1st time months ago and we here in the Middle East have tonnes of jokes about Allah, the prophets and the angels that are way more offensive, funny and obscene than those poorly-made cartoons, yet no one ever got shot for telling one of those jokes or at least we had never seen rallies and protests against those infidel joke-tellers.”
See http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/ Time for a cartoon post…Tuesday, February 07, 2006
What about that ? It is Muslim source who is saying that.
I am sorry but I do not believe that it is about cartoons . People like you are manipulated in my view.
Why you have to do something namely now not when it was published , why you have to do something with Danish newspaper not with Egyptian?
U SAY U MUST FIGHT TERRORISM,THATS TRUE 100%,BUT FIGHT TERRORISM,NOT THE ISLAM, AND THERE IS A GREAT DIFFERENCE,THESE CARTOONS WERENT ABOUT TERRORISM,IT WAS ABOUT OUR PROPHET
I would love to separate Islam and terrorism but I cannot. I believe you that concept of Jihad distorted by terrorists. But this distorted concept of Jihad became a part of reality for me . It is already beyond scholastic meaning of that . People in my country ( I am American) were killed as a part of Jihad
and I am not arguing with you about real meaning of jihad , I believe you. But the “JIHAD” what we are both dealing with is real it is not a theoretical idea it is a real practice. Therefore those cartoons were not about prophet they were about REALITY OF “JIHAD” with which we are dealing daily. All cartoons were about terrorism by the name of prophet, not about prophet himself.
Those who created this REALITY OF “JIHAD” have to be blamed for cartoons not artists not publishers. You have to change this reality and disintegrate your religion from “JIHAD” and terrorism and nobody will do that kind of cartoons. You have to realize this is our non violent response on religiously motivated terror. As long as terror is religiously colored ,religion will be target of those who are fighting religious terror. There is no way around.
WHAT OUR RATIONAL DIALOGUE IS TRYING TO DO,AND THAT DIALOGUE IS THE EXAMPLE THAT SHOULD BE APPLIED WORLDWIDE!!
Amen!!! I agree with you and thank you for your thoughts I really understand a lot during our conversation and I will greatly appreciate your further feedback.
WE HAVE TO MAKE IT VISIBLE MORE THAN THAT,AND THIS PRODUCTIVE CONVERSATION IS A SIMPLE TRY I THINK!!DONT U THINK SO?I REALLY FEEL WE R DOING SOMETHING IMPORTANT FOR THE WORLD!!
I absolutely agree and I hope that we will see soon more visible reaction from the Islam world . Reactions like that one: http://www.khader.dk/flx/in_english/the_ten_commandments_of_democracy/ Khader is a real hero to me , but guess what he has to live under security because of threats to his life from other Muslims. Another example of Muslims who have my great respect are people who created this blog , another example is … you who are sincerely trying to communicate, and although we are no in agreement in 100% but even after few sessions of dialog we became close and i have no doubts that with people like you we have a future. Question is who will be in control in your world people like you or those who became a subject of cartoons( once again not a prophet was a subject but distorted by terrorists REALITY OF “JIHAD”
FINALLY,I WASNT AT ALL OFFENDED,IN THE CONTRARY,AND ALSO I AM NOT TRYING TO PROVE U WRONG AS U SAID!THATS NOT MY TARGET AT ALL,ALL I WANT TO DO IS EXPLANATION!
Thank you very much for that!!!:))
Hi Abouhazem!
Thanks for the feedback i will post my comment tomorrow have some things to do and do not want respond to you in hurry.I want to post "good quality" feedback. Give me a time:) See you soon:)
Rim
Salaam Aleikum!
Thank you for your strength and courage in support of Denmark and the cause of Freedom.
Even behind the "front lines" here in Washington (I've been wearing a Danish Flag pin for four days and more people have identified it as Canadian than got the point of my message), people need to realize that freedom is something worth fighting for--even at the expense of comfort, security or "peace".
You are to be commended for your efforts.
Mike Klein
Washington, DC
hello Abouhazem! Sorry for the delay. I did not want to post anything in hurry because I am taking our dialog very seriously. I agree with you about importance of that kind of dialog and really feel myself lucky that I found partner for dialog,.. we do not have to be agreed with everything \but we have to follow logic in search of trough . I believe in logic J
official disclosure when I am saying “you” I am do not mean you personally only your side in the dispute.
let us summarize;
I agree that you could be offended by those cartoons. They are offensive they suppose to be offensive as a satire , this is the nature of the genre. In one of my previous comment I even mentioned that I am not sure that it was such a good idea to those cartoons on the first place.
But what I am insisting on is that
1. VIOLENT REACTION ON NON VIOLENT CARTOONS IS WAY WORST THAN CARTOONS THEMSELVES. No excuse for that reaction and if anybody has to apologize is those who reacted that way not those who created cartoon. Besides, Danish government did apologized , but I do not see any apologies from those countries where violence is erupted. Non whatsoever.
2. you cannot demand apologies from government or from country or from entire nation for deeds of private newspaper. It is double standard. When Egyptian citizens participated in 9/11 nobody demanded apologies from state of Egypt. Why you are demanding apologies form state not from newspaper?
3. cartoons were targeting Muslim religion FOR REASON not frivolously . and reason be is JIHAD itself as a GLOBAL TERRORISM WITH RELIGIOUS JUSTIFICATION. As long as you brought religion in terrorism your religion no longer immune from anything. I think it is fair game to target religion that used as a justification for mass murder. You are saying that religion was high jacked by terrorists and distorted by them. May be so, but in this case it is terrorism who have to be hold responsible for cartoons not Danish newspaper. Newspaper just REFLECTED DAILY REALITY of JIHAD , you must hold responsible those who created REALITY not those who REFLECTED IT. Instead you are mad on the MIRROR.
4. If your religion is high jacked it is YOUR responsibility to stop those who high jacked religion. You ,instead of trying to shut –up those who reflecting reality , want us to pretend that JIHAD is not happening because in your holly books written something else? I think that Danish newspaper and west is just more easy goal for you than your own terrorism ! any way I will insist that as long as JIHAD is around, it is fair game to do religious cartoons. Those cartoons are targeting religion because that religion allowed to be used as an alibi for terror . That is our way of NON VIOLENT RESPONSE on violent terrorism. You want to stop it? Stop JIHAD.
5. you are saying that “we are arguing about the real meaning of jihad that was mentioned in koran!” but we are not. I am not arguing about Koran I am arguing about reality unacceptable for me . Reality is that your religion used to kill my people. And I feel that it is your responsibility to stop it. Otherwise we have to do what we have to do, including non violent cartoons that are reflection our sentiment against JIHAD. I am not going to get a course of Koran appreciation in order to understand why we are getting killed, I am just want to do whatever has to be done to stop killings. May be I will be interested in Koran but not under the threat to be killed if I am not interested. I live in MY country following MY laws and as long as I am in compliance with laws of my country no foreign country can tell me what to do. I DO NOT agree with you when you are saying that “,B4 ANYONE CORELATE BETWEEN MUSLIMS AND TERRORISTS HE OR SHE SHOULD FIRST LEARN ABOUT ISLAM,” when you are getting killed by someone it does not mean that you have to know philosophy of your killer. You have to stop killing that all. I am not going to study Islam in order to understand why I am getting killed , was it the right reason or not. You have to understand that reality it is not what in the books, reality it what is in life. What is real for me is Islam that we are facing as a JIHAD. Instead of trying to prove that it is a wrong reality you must change and condemn this reality. But what are you doing? INSTEAD of visibly protesting terrorism you are going after Danish newspaper it looks like it is more important for you than JIHAD.
6. Your reaction on cartoons it is not a proportional response . You are violently protesting on the cartoons and you are not protesting AT ALL against terror. When last time mass demonstration against terror happened? Only in Jordan and only after Jordanians themselves became a target. I would understand if you would equally against both , terror AND cartoons, but I do not accept situation when you are not visible AT ALL with your anti-terror sentiment and you are overwhelmingly aggressive with your anti –western sentiment. It is unfair and it is counterproductive. What is more important to you danger of JIHAD or offensiveness of cartoons? You have to decide.
If you think cartoons are more important than fighting JIHAD you are losing me, and if you think that Fighting JIHAD is more important you have to admit that reaction on cartoon is DISPROPORTIONAL. I am not saying that you do not have to be upset AT ALL or you do not have to protest .I am saying that you cannot protest against cartoons and do not protest 100 more times more loudly and visibly against MUSLIM GLOBAL TERRORISM and JIHAD Otherwise it is a double standard .
If you would protest against JIHAD first and then against cartoons I WOULD BE WITH YOU and I would say that cartoons are unfair . But now we need those cartoons to demonstrate that we are against religiously driven terror and if YOU will not withdraw your religion from business of deliberate killing innocent civilians you are loosing respect to your religion on our side. This is a reality ONLY YOU CAN CHANGE IT.
7. your double standard is reflected in your words that your prophet “calling for truth and faithfulness and tolerance” if so your prophet call you for tolerance , why you so intolerant to Danish people who have different vision of right and wrong than you. Follow the teaching of your prophet, be tolerant!!! Forgive them if you are tolerant indeed or do not expect tolerance from other side. !
8. your double standard is reflected in your words “if i say something about someone I should first know him” what do you know about Danish laws ? what do you know about rules of freedom or speech? If you would know enough you would understand the whole nonsense of that kind of demand what your country is applying to Denmark
9. YOU ARE SAYING THAT “there were every now and then a bomb or killing to Egyptians, and i can feel ur sadness” I think that is wrong to be outrage because of cartoons and be sad because of killed people. It must opposite . You must be outrage because of killed people and you can be upset or sad because of cartoons. You are too soft in your heart to terrorists and you are too harsh to those who are reflecting this religious terrorism in the form of cartoons.
10. Finally I have to ask you again 3rd time what do you think about daily insults to West that going on in the Muslim countries? What do you think about routinely published horrible anti- Semitic cartoons? What do you think about demolished Budhas in Afghanistan? Why nobody in your world do not apologize for that? Why nobody feel themselves responsible for burning our symbol our flag almost daily? If you are so sensitive to your pain how you can be so insensitive to pain of others? Should we boycott Egypt if/when it burning flag of USA or demand apologies form your government every time Arab country publish another anti-Semitic cartoon?
Thank you for you extensive response. I am very glad that you are in agreement with me on many points , and I would really like your answers on all my questions including #10
thanbk you for the diaolg:)
rim
OUTRAGED MUSLIMS! OH MY!
PLEASE COPY AND PASTE THIS AND E-MAIL IT TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW. LET FREEDOM OF SPEECH REIGN!!!!!!!!
UPDATE: And now the leaders of this so called "peaceful religion" have called for the murder of the cartoonist. Could you imagine the Pope or Dali Lama doing such a thing? Not since the Nazis has the world been so in danger of loosing it's humanity. Something is wrong in the state of Islam.
We wake up this morning to see video on CNN showing rampaging Muslims around the world. In Europe, the Middle East, the Pacific Rim ... Muslim Mobs spreading mayhem. It seems that these mighty mad Muslims are rioting and firing their ever-present AK-47s into the air because of cartoons. Yup ... this latest epidemic of Muslim outrage comes to us because some newspapers in Norway and Denmark published some cartoons depicting Mohammed. In fact ... here is one of my favorites!
Admit it, this turban/bomb thing IS ACCURATE.
Muslim outrage huh. OK ... let's do a little historical review. Just some lowlights:
Muslims fly commercial airliners into buildings in New York City. No Muslim outrage.
Muslim officials block the exit where school girls are trying to escape a burning building because their faces were exposed. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims cut off the heads of three teenaged girls on their way to school in Indonesia. A Christian school. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims murder teachers trying to teach Muslim children in Iraq. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims murder over 80 tourists with car bombs outside cafes and hotels in Egypt. No Muslim outrage.
A Muslim attacks a missionary children's school in India. Kills six. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims slaughter hundreds of children and teachers in Beslan, Russia. Muslims shoot children in the back. No Muslim outrage.
Let's go way back. Muslims kidnap and kill athletes at the Munich Summer Olympics. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims massacre dozens of innocents at a Passover Seder. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims fire rocket-propelled grenades into schools full of children in Israel. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims murder more than 50 commuters in attacks on London subways and busses. Over 700 are injured. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims murder innocent vacationers in Bali. No Muslim outrage.
Muslim newspapers publish anti-Semitic cartoons. No Muslim outrage
Muslims are involved, on one side or the other, in almost every one of the 125+ shooting wars around the world. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims beat the charred bodies of Western civilians with their shoes, then hang them from a bridge. No Muslim outrage.
Newspapers in Denmark and Norway publish cartoons depicting Mohammed. Muslims are outraged.
Dead children. Dead tourists. Dead teachers. Dead doctors and nurses. Death, destruction and mayhem around the world at the hands of Muslims .. no Muslim outrage ... but publish a cartoon depicting Mohammed with a bomb in his turban and all hell breaks loose.
Come on, is this really about cartoons? They're rampaging and burning flags. They're looking for Europeans to kidnap. They're threatening innkeepers and generally raising holy Muslim hell not because of any outrage over a cartoon. They're outraged because it is part of the Islamic jihad's culture to be outraged. You don't really need a reason. You just need an excuse. Wandering around, destroying property, murdering children, firing guns into the air and feigning outrage over the slightest perceived insult is to a jihadist what tailgating is to a Steeler's fan.
I know and understand that these bloodthirsty murderers do not represent the majority of the world's Muslims. When, though, do they become outraged? When do they take to the streets to express their outrage at the radicals who are making their religion the object of worldwide hatred and ridicule? Islamic writer Salman Rushdie wrote of these silent Muslims in a New York Times article three years ago. "As their ancient, deeply civilized culture of love, art and philosophical reflection is hijacked by paranoiacs, racists, liars, male supremacists, tyrants, fanatics and violence junkies, why are they not screaming?"
Indeed. Why not?
UPDATE: And now the leaders of this so called "peaceful religion" have called for the murder of the cartoonist. Could you imagine the Pope or Dali Lama doing such a thing? Not since the Nazis has the world been so in danger of loosing it's humanity. Something is wrong in the state of Islam.
The only problem with the cartoon is that he left out the horns
HELLO Abouhazem!
Thank you for the feedback
First : Sorry it took time to answer. And please do not be afraid to offend me. It does not mean that I cannot be offended, it means that no serious conversation can be undertaken without the risk to offend an opponent. This is the occupational hazard. I am not afraid to be offended, I can deal with that .But thank you for your concern I appreciate it!
Second: posting by anonymous above is obviously not mine , but this is a sentiment of people around me and it resonates with many things that I was saying. It is very difficult to see peaceful or as you believe real Islam in context of facts listed by anonymous. Unfortunately, latest cartoon riots are not helping either.
But let us get started :)
#1 follow up:
You wrote : I APOPLOGIZE ON BEHALF OF THOSE PEOPLE WHO DID THE VIOLENCE THAT OCCURRED!
Thank You, I really appreciate it.
But it is a huge difference between your personal apologies for ILLEGAL AND MORALLY WRONG violence and official apologies from Danish for those, although may be morally wrong (in your view , not mine), but otherwise perfectly LEGAL cartoons.
This is the main point .I want you to reflect on this point. None of Muslim governments even feel themselves obliged to apologize for ILLEGAL AND IMMORAL VIOLENCE. And in the same time your government is demanding satisfaction for legal actions from sovereign state.
#2 follow up:
I AM WITH U THAT THE DANISH GOVERNMENT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT,AND I TOLD MANY PEOPLE ABOUT THAT,BUT U SHOULD TAKE NOTICE THAT THE PEOPLE WERE SO HURT AND INSULTED THAT THEY NEEDED ANYTHING TO EVEN PARTIALLY DECRAESE THE IMPACT OF THIS INSULT,CUZ AS I TOLD U THAT THE PROPHET FOR US IS SOMETHING SO GREAT AND BIG.
Here is the point . you follow the law even when , and especially when, it is difficult to you. I understand that your people are hurt (as I said I think for the reason, but nevertheless I understand that cartoon hurt your feelings) But this is a whole point : you do not follow the law only when you feel it is comfortable. You follow the law even when it is difficult for you, no matter what. I am sorry but you are missing the point.
Let us for the sake of argument presume that cartoons were wrong. What kind of admission of guilt are you looking for? Apologies? They are given. Governments apologized, they said they regret offensiveness of cartoons but they have a law that does not allow them to interfere with press. Why is it not enough? What else do you want? Do you really want to kill those who created cartoons etc? I am asking because if you are not looking for deaths you have to be satisfied long time ago and if you are looking for further destruction , those cartoons are making the point.
So,what kind of satisfaction are you looking for?
3# PSEUDO RELIGIOUS JUSTIFICATION? Fine, let us use this term. Let us do it in order to separate “ REAL Islam”, which does not support Jihad and “PSEUDO Islam”, which based itself on murderous terrorist ideology. I have no problem with that distinction.
So, consider these cartoons as a reflection of that “PSEUDO Islam” which is may be pseudo but real. Why person of prophet? Because the “PSEUDO Islam” is using your prophet for justification of killing us. You outrage? I understand . But I do not understand why your outrage on Danish newspaper not on “PSEUDO Islam”? Newspaper just REFLECTED DAILY REALITY created by “PSEUDO Islam”. You are mad on the mirror. It is “PSEUDO Islam” who are insulting your prphet not newspaper.
4# I never said you do nothing. But I will insist that you do WAY LESS against terrorism than you do against west. Look how massive and violent reaction against cartoons. Nothing ON THIS SCALE is happening against terrorism.
#5 OTHERWISE U WILL ATTACK ISLAM AS A RELIGION OF TERROR AND MUSLIMS
Show me any official statement of any official entity on the west who are saying that Islam is an enemy. No one saying that, quite opposite. Bush said many times that we are fighting Muslim terrorism not Islam. But I am saying you that many people even who recently were very pro-Islam and against west in USA and Europe are less and less willing to tolerate that permanent claim of Islam on its exclusivity that was demonstrated by the protest against cartoons. You are repeating all the time that there are 1.2 billion people in Islam. Huge number. Very impressive. But it does not make you right JUST because you have a majority. In the meantime it is scary. Today you are offended with cartoons tomorrow with something else. Knowing that you are majority you are easily erasing the line between being offended and having right to demand from other countries something that other countries consider illegal , like censuring press and punishing newspapers.
6# WE R TRYING TO FIGHT TERRORISM,
I know you are, I am saying you are not protesting it in the same scale as you are protesting cartoons.
I AM NOT LOOSING U THEN:
Thank you I am with you too:)
P,BUT I DONT THINK THE REACTION DISPROPRTIONAL UNLESS U MEAN THE VIOLENCE DONE,
It is precisely what I mean!!! Your disproportional reaction on cartoons showing where are your priorities!
PEACEFUL PROTESTING AND BOYCOTTING
I have no problem with that you know that. My problem that if you are not able to avoid violent reaction( today Italian consulate was burned in Libya) you have no moral right to protest at all. You cannot say "apologize , or we will boycott we will demonstrate" and in the same time do things 1000 times worst than those against which you are protesting.
Scenario #1
You are offended with cartoons and you peacefully protest, boycotting goods and demonstrating, sending diplomatic notes and suing newspaper . I have no problem with that. ( you know my position on that from my previous posting) it will be civilized although wrong reaction. No problem!
Scenario #2
You offended with cartoons and you are violently protesting burning consulates , threatening with death etc. I would not agree with that , I would be against that reaction I would fight that kind of reaction but LOGICALLY I would understand that
But why are you combining BOTH SCENARIOS in senseless farce, trying to put together legal protest and illegal violent actions? It is beyond me! I neither UNDERSTAND it nor ACCEPT it. You cannot get it both ways. If you cannot control your crowd you are the one who has to apologize, not to demand apologies, because, I repeat again: AS BAD CARTOONS MAY BE , VIOLENT REACTION IS HUNDRED TIMES WORSE. So, PLEASE UNDESTAND, nobody is against your right to be upset and your right to protest but you have to choose : either you are on the side of civilization and you are protesting within the laws, or you feel that you are beyond the law and are trying to scare and intimidate people just because you have 1.2 billion believers on your side.
7#i DONT THINK TOLERANCE MEANS THAT WHEN I AM INSULTE I JUST SAY THANKS ,INSULT ME AGAIN!
No you do not have to say thank you, but you have to be TOLERANT
Between saying “thank you” and madness on the street there are many other forms of showing disagreement and staying tolerant in the same time. DANISH JOURNALIST CAME IN THE EGYPTIAN TV AND SAID THAT THERE IS A LAW IN DENMARK THAT PROHIBITS THE MOCKERY AND INSULT OF A GROUP OF PEOPLE BEAUS OF THEIR RELIGION,
So what ? what does it prove? If it is indeed true , sue that newspaper in court and end of story. You cannot use legal argument for justification of illegal action. You did agree that violence is wrong, you personally apologized for that and I am really touched, why are you saying now that you cannot be tolerant because in your view it will be like you said "thank you" for insult? Do not say thank you just be tolerant , after all it is teachinbg of your prophet, as you said!
9#WELL,AFTER THE SHARM SHIEKH BOMBINGS LAST YEAR THERE WAS A HUGE PEACEFUL PROTEST
may be so, but it is like Jordanian protests happen only when Jordanians themselves became target. I am saying about protection for your own religion from your “PSEUDO ISLAM” which was reflected in cartoons. And this “PSEUDO ISLAM” ( you see I am using your terminology to make your conversation more productive :) is directed against west predominately and west reacting with cartoons. I do not see any visible attempts in Muslim world to distant from “PSEUDO ISLAM” by mass protesting against any “PSEUDO ISLAMIC Jihad ” not only against attacks on you. This is what I mean. If you think that it is not real Islam but “PSEUDO ISLAMIC Jihad ” you have to demonstrate it I did not mean single action of protest against single action of terror on your soil.
10# DEMOLISHED BUDDAS IN AFGHANESTAN IS SOMETHING I DISAGREE I know that I have no doubt about that, if I was thinking that you support that I would even had no conversation with you in the first place, I know that you are personally decent person. But listen yourself to what are saying . I disagree with that. Compare it with your outrage with cartoons. Do not you see disproportional reaction? On one hand somebody created cartoons and entire Muslim world rioting. When Muslims are demolishing 2000 years olds holly things of other religions that existed more than 1000 years before Islam even was establish you just “disagree”. So if Japanese Buddhist for example would burn you consulate and threatened to behead you personally it would be sad but understandable?
WITH,AND ALSO THE DAILY INSULTS FOR THE WEST,AND ANTI-SEMITIC CARTOONS IF THEY WERE JUST ACCORDING TO RELIGIOUS BASIS!THEN I TOTALLY DISAGREE,
If they are not with anti-religious bias so what? You would agree ? If I am atheist, you cannot reach me through religion, does it mean you can insult people, history, person? Please explain that.
BUT THERE R ALSO ANTI-ISLAM CARTOONS ALL OVER THE WORLD AND NO ONE APOLOGIZED,AND I SAW A CARTOON IN AN AMERICAN OR ENGLISH NEWSPAPER(DONT REMEMBER)SAYING THAT OUT PRESIDENT FORGED THE LAST PRESIDENTAL ELECTIONS,DID SOMEONE APOLOGIZE FOR THAT,BUT IF WE START SAYING U APOLOGIZE FOR THIS AND I APOLOGIZE FOR THAT THEN:
It is exactly my point: no one has to apologize, they can if they wish to, but you cannot demand it. I do not ask apologies for anti-American actions and cartoons, it hurts me, but I realize that freedom of speech could be offensive to others. I asked about that for reason, only I do not understand how can you feel yourself free from necessity to apologize for insults in your press and demand apologize for others when you are offended. It is, again, cannot be both ways. Either you are apologizing for your press or you do not demand apologies yourself from western press. Any objections?
I do not think that all questions of Iraq have anything to do with issues of cartoons we cannot talk about everything simultaneously. It does not mean that I am dismissing your “Iraq argument” I just want to have separate discussion about that. It is huge question and cannot be hidden in footnotes of cartoons polemic. I will make special posting about Iraq only ( I promis you that I will not leave it without answer) for right now just want to remind you that before Iraq there was 9/11. We cannot sit and wait when other and other 9/11th will happen. You can approve and disapprove the war but you cannot dismiss the fact that huge antiwar movement is very visible on the west. Do you have anything like antiterrorism movement visible on the same scale in the Muslim countries? No!!!
RIM
Hello Aouhazem!
Below is just one quick preliminary feedback !
IN RESPONSE FOR WHAT HAPPENED IN LIBYA THE MINISTER OF INTERNAL SECURITY WAS RESIGNED
Short feedback :
He did not resigned he was suspended.
Libyan minister was suspended not because he allowed burning the consulate but vice versa because he tried to stop it. He is accused of excessive force against protesters:
“The parliamentary secretariat said in a statement that Nasr al-Mabrouk would be referred for investigation in to the clashes between police and protesters. “
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4727810.stm
Investigation of clashes without any investigation of the torching the consulate ?
It clearly shows me that nobody in Libya considers violence against the West as a problem.
I suspect that minister would be even rewarded if just Italian consulate would be burned without clashes with protesters and casualties. So far, only one Muslim state takes riots against westerners seriously and it is Pakistan, others if not indulge in it, as Syria and Iran, then have demonstrated no visible objections against anti-western riots .
rim
one more thing about state support of riots:
State supported riots?
Interesting:
Libyan interior minister was suspended after he ordered police to interfere with mob torching Italian consulate.
Seems to me that Libyan minister was suspended not because he allowed burning the consulate but vice versa because he tried to stop it.
“In Libya, the parliament suspended the interior minister after at least 11 people died when his security forces attacked rioters who torched the Italian consulate in Benghazi.“
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11383819/
http://eastwestplus.blogspot.com/
rim
from Denmark..to Abouhazem:
I'm deeply impressed by your conversation w/rim..much respect.
May I join ? I'm a Danish guy, who found this great place (bigup to FFE!)
Would you believe me if I told you that before the "shit hit the fan" the vast majority of Danes had no idea of the Muslim taboo about depicting the Prophet(pbuh) ?
- and the 2 most offensive cartoons (the bomb and the knife) are actually mocking westerners who think "terrorism" when they hear the word Islam ?
I pride myself of being more knowledgeable of Islam than most native Danes, and I can only try to understand how hurtful it must be.
There's a vast gap of understanding btwn the West and the ME, now the Danes are learning , and they're learning fast. The boycott is the price we have to pay.
Please forgive us for being so ignorant.
(sorry for being anonynous, do I have to join, to post my name ?)
Salaam
from rim to Danish guy (anonymous)
I know you addressed not to me but to my friend Abouhazem( with whom I do not agree , but still consider him a friend) . But I believe Abouhazem would not mind me talking with you:)
you are missing the point Danish guy (anonymous)
Speaking of ignorance:
first of all there are many examples of Muslim art depicting prophet Mohammed , give me a time and I will found you bunch of Iranian artwork dated approximately 14th/15th century with imagery of Mohamed. So from art point of view depiction / versus not depiction in Muslim art tradition you are still ignorant, sorry to tell you that. I am sure those imams who are hysterical about restriction of depiction of Mohammed are ignorant themselves .It is way more complicated and different branches of Islam have different interpretations of that issue . So please keep learning!!!
Second of all, what are you going to do with European art of previous centuries that depicted prophet Mohammed? Discard it just to do not offend Muslims?
We are getting there slowly but surely: read this London’s Tate gallery censors work citing fear of offending Muslims
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/oct2005/tate-o12.shtml
But again as I said to Aboughazem , let us stipulate that cartoons were bad. Any way , reaction on those cartoons in my view shows that cartoons had a point:
breaking news!!!!
LUCKNOW: An Indian state government minister has offered a reward of $11.5 million (BD4.5m) for the beheading of any of the cartoonists who drew the controversial images of Prophet Mohammed.
The offer was made by Mohammed Yaqoob Qureshi, a minister in Uttar Pradesh state. He told the crowd after Friday prayers in Meerut, 400km northwest of the state capital Lucknow, that he would give "the avenger" Rs510m ($11.5m) and his weight in gold.
source
http://audaciousontology.blogspot.com/2006/02/another-bounty.html
another breaking news!!!!
A top Taliban commander has offered a reward of 100 kilograms of gold to anyone who kills the person responsible for "blasphemous" cartoons of the Prophet Muhammed, the Afghan Islamic Press (AIP) has reported.http://audaciousontology.blogspot.com/2006/02/reward-gold-for-cartoonist.html
what do you think about that ? let us presume that cartoons are bad ( although I do not think so) let us stipulate that. So what ? Reaction of Muslim world on that is clear intimidation.
Danish guy, tell me are you going to be less ignorant only about Islam , or about all religions and believes? How about Christianity ? are you going to forbid any caricatures on Christian religion, Catholicism for example? Why only religion? Why do not forbid any caricatures altogether? Just do not offend anybody?
There are many other things forbidden in Islam or in various branches of Islam, so what? Let Muslims follow those rules and do not let them try to impose those rules on others. Why Buddhist do not impose Buddhist's believes on the rest of the world?
I think you are going to limit yourself with “ respect” only to Islam. You know why? Because if you will not they will cut your head off . But you know what , I understand you position. Nobody want to be beheaded, it is scary . So say it! Say that "I am going to “respect” Muslims because I am threatened and I am intimidated"! Djust do not bring in this your talk about ignorance. You was ignorant before, because you did not know that depiction of prophet is forbidden? Now you know that . You did expand your horizons of knowledge. Congratulations! But do not forget that you learn a lot of other things about Islam, such as :the artist who created cartoons going to be beheaded. Respect it too. Salaam
rim
Yes.. one more thing, Danish guy! :
THE BOYCOTT IS THE PRICE WE HAVE TO PAY.
I think instead of feel yourself intimidated by the boycott you have to undertake some contractions
1.
I think Danish companies must hold responsible those Danish Imams who started all this outrageous ideological war. How about to sue them? I bet they have money and could be liable in that case. They are subject of Danish law and must be held responsible in this case. Let them pay damages!
2.
Danish people and Europeans must raise the question in the EU about compensating companies like ARLA from money that are going to be part of financial AID to middle eastern countries. Withhold EU and Danish financial aid to countries participating in the boycott. Compensate financial losses of companies damaged by the boycott from those money.
Read more at http://www.eastwestplus.blogspot.com/
from rim to Abouhazem
Hi Abouhazem! I will post my answer to your posting shortly v give me time , enjoy so far moral support for Danish guy! You see, intimidation is working !!! See you soon.
rim:)
from the Danish Guy who may or may not be anonymous, to rim and abouhazem....
Thanks for letting me in. Lots of things to comment on, let's se:
rim, I'm missing the point ? maybe so, it seems you're talking politics and I'm talking understanding.
I know about that the taboo on depicting the Prophet (pbuh) has not always been there. And I know about the reward on the cartoonists (who only did what their boss told them to do). Well, they didn't get Salman Rushdie, I think they'll be safe,
the boycott doesn't bother me much. From my liberal-left point of wiev Arla is a monopolistic mastodont who has eaten every small dairy in DK. They can afford to lose some millions. Good point about taking money from aid to the ME to compensate them. But that's politics.
abouhazem, I have
When I first heard about those cartoons, I couldn't believe it. How could the paper _not_ know they would be used by hate-mongers ? Stupid, stupid.
And how could the Egyptian ambassador _demand_ that our PM punish the editor or close down the paper ?
On another blog a Muslim said "think of someone insulting your mother, who is dear to you and then multiply that by 100; that's how is feels"
How many westerners can understand that ?
So, when I see my flag being burned I feel no anger, I pity those who have no other freedom but to hate.
(I'd better spilt this up in more parts....I'll be back)
There really is a gap of understanding btw the West and the ME, and every one of us is either building bridges or digging trenches. What you two guys been doing here is honourable: there is hope for this planet.
Salamm
Esben
ok, see if I can keep track of things
abouhazem; I have Muslim friends here in DK who are just as worried as every one else. Strangely there has been absolutely no violence here. We are getting to know each other fast.
I have been to wonderful Egypt as a tourist, and talked with these kind warm-hearted people. The average Egyptian is a decent fellow who lives as best he can, just like billions all over the world. And now he hates me. For no other reason that I share language and flag with this paper who sparked the whole thing.
rim, does it look like bowing down to terrorism to you ? All this s¤#! is an insult to what I believe in, namely that it _is_ possible to understand what matters to people in other parts of the world. I feel no anger,no fear, only shame.
abouhazem:
There's been a Christian delegation in Egypt these days. They sound optimistic. Is there anything in the news down there, and what's the opinion?
What are the chances I can one day go to wonderful Egypt and not fear for my life ?
Seems there's only the 3 of us left. I would like to talk to anonymous from UAE.
to rim...
whoa! sorry to upset you..what happened ? Don't wanna spoil the party..
When I say insult to me I'm talking 'bout this whole cartoon business, NOT about your wievs, truly sorry if I gave you that idea.
This "clash of cultures" is all mixup now: it's Iraq, Iran, Palestine religious/secular ...etc. It's hard to keep it all apart.
I must admit where I am now it's a lot about feelings. you say "How about thoughts?" Good idea, if you hail from Eastern Europe maybe you can see things clearer than me at the moment.
I'll just try to pull myself together and be back.
hello again rim and abouhazem....
Gotta admit it rim, it's all about politics if I _think_ about it (and not feel to much :-)
rim, you mentioned the Soviet Union: I grew up during the Cold War Era and was taught to fear communism. Then the Berlin Wall came down and all "you" ppl over ther turned out to be ppl like "us" (note the us-and-them) Back then Islam was no issue.
After the Iranian revolution in 1980 and even more after 9/11 Islam was the new enemy, and in the US the people have a lot less freedom than before , due to "security" It's as if "somebody" is taking away people's freedom for their own safety.
Maybe I'm just paranoid :-)
..and here's one for Abouhazem:
Sorry (rim) to keep on about those cartoons, but I'm afraid it's not over yet.
Don't know if you read about it Abouhazem, but at the peak of the cartoon row, there was a rumour that some neo-nazis would gather in Copenhagen to burn the Qu'ran. Fortunately, it was just rumours.
As always, ppl fight their fear with humour. So here's a joke:
"Q: Why can't you get the Qu'ran on CD?
A: Because noboby would dare to burn it (burn the CD)
please tell me: is that offensive to the "average Muslim" ? ( I know there's no such person) the joke is on the play of words, but coming from an infidel Dane, I must admit on one hand I don't wanna hurt anyone, on the other there's free speech.
you see my problem ?
(other than the joke isn't really that good)
hey Abouhazem, i am so glad that you did not leave! I was very busy those days than I thought may be you already left. I will post my comment tomorrow but first of all 1.average Muslim is statistically average, standard Muslim. Neither me nor Esben think that there are “ average “ Muslims, or average people at all. We think, I hope Esben will support me if he will be back, that all people in general and are individuals and they are unique persons not “average” statistic .
2. You are not expert in politic? Neither do i. I just wanted to know what do you think About my worries about Muslim’s states global policies, do you personally associate yourself with all political trends of Muslim states? I do not expect from you a political analysis , just curious about your personal opinion .
Again thanks for not leaving the forum I am glad to here your voice again, my friend!!! :)
If we don´t employ arabs en our factories and in the construcción.
José
Spain
About me:
I am male ,I am 50 years old
I was born in Soviet Union
I am American and I am Jewish.
Tell me about yourself
Rim
hi, guys....been gone awhile
I am male 38 years, Danish.
Just did a religious quiz at http://quizfarm.com
And I turned out to be predominately Buddhist, with a tendency towards Pagan and Muslim :-)
Should we take this discussion to rim's blog `?
bless you
Esben,
You are all more than welcome to continue your discussion on my blog. Please feel home:)
Hello my friends!!!
I hope you did not leave yet! I was extremely busy and therefore could not post. But I am so glad that you are still in.
Firsts of all Abouhazem 9i am so impressed that such a young person as yourself so tuned in serious thinking and respect to other opinions. Your parents did terrific job raising you as thoughtful person. It is privilege to talk with you. I have a son who is 21 so it is like a talk between generations?!!!
Second of all when I wrote that I am Jewish I did not mean Judaism. I am atheist and not practicing any religion at all, meaning i do not belong to any particular church or congregation: Jewish for me is a nationality. I respect any religion but I do not appreciate any church as a professional organization which capitalized on religion . I think in all cartoon thing “professional Muslims” like imams played very negative role. But it is not only Muslims problem: any professional organization including church or any religious clerical institute in some point defending own interests more than interests of human kind.Good example of that reactinoury role is recent event when “Several hundred people have protested in northern Afghanistan against a decision to dismiss a case against a man who converted to Christianity. “ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4848614.stm
what do you think about that my friends?
Esben! Thank you for staying in !
Interesting how paganism ,Islam and Budhism can assemble together in your mind .They are so opposite way of religious thinking! Are you ready to leave following Islamic Sharia law? What do you think about the case against a man who converted to Christianity in Afghanistan
Freedom for Egyptians ! thank you for your hospitality you are doing such a terrific job with your blog!!!
rim
http://eastwestplus.blogspot.com/
Here is a powerful and amazing statement on Al Jazeera television. The woman is Wafa Sultan, an Arab-American psychologist from Los Angeles. I would suggest watching it ASAP because I don't know how long the link will be active. She's skating on thin ice on their pond.
http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=null
Hello Abouhazem!
I am sorry for delay with my answer, and I thank you very much for honest and meaningful respond .
So my questions would be ,
1. if you understand such profound flaws of your society why all your energy is not dedicated to fixing your problems and instead you are over focus with west and instead your are protesting not against luck of freedom in your society but against of : too much of freedom “ in western world ( cartoon protest)
2. it is not only Arab problem ( but I agree that may be in Arab world it is more obvious. I still think that it is the problem of Muslim world in general, Yes Indonesian and Malaysian economies are booming, But I was asking about input in the technological progress which is a foundation for that progress. Any world class brand names in technological world any innovations that you can give me as an example that ware invented in created in Muslim world in this century? Malaysian electronics production does not built on ,Malaysian technology , chips details and software they just assumable things invented and produced somewhere else ( Japan and Korea for example) . So I still think that there are reasons for that luck of input of Muslim countries in modern technological progress.
3. Wafa Sultan’s main idea is that in order to be a part of progress Islam had to be put on place that any other religion have in modern society. It cannot be dominant force otherwise Muslim world will be against west but in the same time reliant on the west. It is interesting that you decided to boycott Danish goods , but hypothetically speaking what would happened with Muslim world if its boycotted all non Muslim input? What cars you would drive what are planes you would fly what computers you would use etc,
In the meantime I repeat again that I know for sure even from personal experience how talented and productive people of Muslim culture are, Thing is that they can implement their talents only outside the Muslim culture and it means that something wrong with that culture.
I am sorry again for long delay with answer, and I will be still be busy nearest few weeks so please do not be offended if I will post my comments with delay next time. Remember that I always read your comments and I am always waiting for your feedback.
your firend, rim:)
I meant lack not luck, sorry typo , I am typing too fast :)
My condolences to you Abouhazem with this honorable terrace in Dahab.
rim
My condolences to you Abouhazem with this horrible terror act in Dahab.
sorry for typo in previous message
Hi there,
I have the following message to all egyptians:The moment the slave resolves that he will no longer be a slave, his fetters fall. He frees himself and shows the way to others. Freedom and slavery are mental states.
We must become the change we want to see in the world.
There is nothing worse on this whole world than way that egyptian people use to do.I am part egyptian but i fell like to say this to you, citizens of Egypt:SHAME ON YOU!!!
You only know how to cheat and playing games.How to throw the trash on asphalt,how to dive into others pocket.How to blame your own relegion(whatever is that).I travelled around the world but i have never seen ill mannered and criminal minded,envy people like you are.You showed me the depth of jealousy,envy and greed.Look into your minds and try to keep the faith on God if you will ever can.Three things are important to you and these are money,stomach and sex.Arafffff
Hi everbody,
Arab people are the biggest enemies of the Islam.This is not the right place to be clever if you would like to protect them.Go to Egypt and try to teach people how to be clear and how to be honest.Some people in Europe they are drawing catroons but some people at east they are making sex with students to for higher marks at universiy and doing all things they call it HARAM.Speach is the death of action.Ain't no doubt men.Egyptian people said to me that cheapest thing is egypt that is the human being.You could spend half a lifetime and writing in the air but you are not going to change nothing this way.
Hello , Abouhazem!!! Welcome back!!!
I am so glad that you came back because I do missed you :)
I read the article. It is sort of interesting but I do not think it is somehow relevant to all our disputes I can show you numerous articles about hidden scientific meaning in Christianity, Buddhism etc. I respect everything I read in the article and I can imagined the meaning of that for you but what does it change in our situation where we have Islam and pseudo islam with vicious terrorist ideology which want me dead. For me islam is unfortunately more relevant to my life as only major religion which produced its jihads pseudo islam forms which threatening to entire world. This is what I want to understand why Islam ? why Islam produced this viscous forms ? Could you explain me that? I have nothing again Muslims but I have to be very suspicious to Islam as and ideology that tend to dominant in the world ( read my comments about Islam conference as an only religious organizations of state and Arab league ads only religious+ nationalistic organization of states in the world )
I absolutely agree with your thoughts about democracy as a foundation for freedom but I am not sure that today’s Islam world would agree with separation state and churches what do you think?
What are thoughts on the crisis in Gaza? I would really appreciate your insight.
Just to avoid gaps in our conversation what do you think about moving our conversation somewhere else? Do you have your blog? I just want to make our conversation more visisble!!!
Again thank you for not forgetting about me it is such a luck to have a partner for discussion as yourself. Say hello for your parents they did an excellent job raising very wise young man.
To anonymous:
SHAME ON YOU anonymous!!
you call other people ill mannered and you yourself rude and offensive, you are polluting web space with duty words and meaningless rudeness. If you have something to discuss be our guest if you have only statements and you are not interested what other people than, go away.
Welcome back Abouhazem!
Happy to see you again!!
I hope you got all excellent grades on your exams!! I expect nothing less than that form such a wise young gentlemen like yourself.
You have the best wishes form my son who has an exams of his own and can understand all your trepidations.
I am very happy that our conversation is continued and I hope to get a prompt respond from you . I hope nothing in my comments below will offend you as you know my intentions are to understand your point to be understood in mine, but if I think you are wrong I am try to prove that you are wrong. It what I call a discussion !!!
No you was not boring at all . I was very educating and useful information. I did not know all these things in its specifics as you explained it to me. However I am not surprise. I never said that Old testament was somehow better than Koran and I agree that INTERPRETATION of text is what makes the politic today not the text itself. I saw many sources that complied very violent exerts from Koran ( something like you found in Old testament) and I never took it serious because I understand that if you wish I will find as many violent exerts form Koran as you found in Old testament. BUT THIS IS NOT THE POINT , I really do not want to go in this direction.
you are asking :
“WHY NOBODY SAYS A WORD ABOUT CHRISTIANITY?AND THEY TALK ABOUT ISLAM ALTHOUGH THERE IS NO CALLING FOR DEATH AND VIOLENCE IN ISLAM EVEN IN WARS WE WERE ASKED TO TREAT WELL PRISONERS OF WAR AND NEVER KILL A WOMAN OR CHILD OR OLD MAN DURING THE WAR,”
Because Muslims ( transgressors) are only ones who are killing , beheading , blowing people up by the name of the GOD on our watch. Who else today is killing other people by the name of GOD? Only Muslims. This is why people are talking negatively about Islam. IT IS NOT WHAT WRITTEN IN THE TEXT MATTERS IT IS WHAT GOING ON IN THE MINDS OF THE READERS IS IMPORTANT.
If Islam is so peaceful by intent ( and I am not arguing with that ) why it is ONLY religion today that produces global violent bigoted aberrations like pseudo Islamic Jihadists . Just do not tell me that these terrorist just do not understand Islam properly . I cannot and I do not want to be a hostage of a religious education in the Islam world . You have to understand that misinterpretations of Islam it is your internal problem. You cannot impose this problem on the rest of the world. I refuse IN PRINCIPLE ( sorry, do not take it personal) to have any discussion about any holly text Muslim or Christian because IT IS NOT THE POINT . The point is what people are doing not what they are preaching.
Negativity toward to Islam dictated by islmaist’s DEEDS not by words form Koran. You can have everything written perfectly wise and kind and have vicious and ruffles readers and you are getting horrible problem
Remember that FASCISM and COMMUNISM are grew form perfectly peaceful socialism. What we have now is another Fascism :Islamic fascism and the rest of Islam world have to draw the clearly visible and not ambiguous line between Islamic fascism and Islam OTHERWISE WE ALL IN BIG TROUBLE.
Unfortunately I do not see that political will to differentiate Islamic fascism and Islam itself and it cause a lot of negativity in the world . You instead of going after those who are doing vicious crimes going after us who do not appracate Koran. Abnd I gues it is a trend in your culture . As a result ALL ISLAM LOOK THREATENING for us and all Islam look aggressive in its deeds and its trends:
1. why Islam is imposing itself on the rest of the world POLITICALLY (Islam conference is only religiously selected political organization of countries in the world, no other religion is chosen as a criteria for congregation of states)
2. Western countries are liberal and allow everybody live their lives and they are consistent in that . China does not allow anybody live as they wish but it does not interfere in western democracy imposing its standards on them. only Muslim countries and allowed themselves open double standard when they are defend there right to live as they wish in their countries ignoring and eliminating and oppressing other, non Muslim cultures and in the same time to demand that right to those Muslims who are living on the west.
3. Muslim world look very unappreciative in recent history . I here all the time anti American rhetoric form island countries but it was Americans who help Afghanistan to fight soviet invasion, I was Americans who saved Bosnians and Albans form Serbs , and it is only recent events . What we got in return? 9/11
4. Muslim world is leave with a double standard. It is OK to do not recognize right to exist to entire country it is OK to commit genocide in Sudan and in the same time to claim justice for themselves .
So it is does not matter for me what is written in Koran or Old Testament what is matter is what countries . Peoples and nations are doing.
I agree that Arabs in avant-garde of Muslim terrorism and I understand that they are minority in Muslim world. But WHY OTHER COUNTRIES AND OTHER NATIONS HAS TO PAY PRICE FOR PROBLEMS WITHIN ARAB WORLD ?
What do you think about situation in Gaza? I really want to get your insight
Correction ;
sorry for my typos I an getting carried away when I am typing
1. Muslim world look very unappreciative in recent history . I here all the time anti American rhetoric form MUSLIM ( not island countries)
One more thing just now I head on TV that Iranian president called all Muslim countries to unite against Israel. Can you imagine that US would call all Christian countries to unite against Iran, or dalai lama would call to unite all Buddhist countries against China? Only Islam is permanently using religion as a political definition and by the name of the God only Islam is conducting its daily business. This is a problem, not words in Koran .
abouhazem, if you still around please let me know
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